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FORUMS Canon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon EOS Digital Cameras 
Thread started 05 Mar 2014 (Wednesday) 22:13
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My 6D is a lot better sports camera than my 7d

 
Gobeatty
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Mar 11, 2014 17:47 |  #181

I put my 6D in silent mode at my son's odyssey of the mind presentation (library quiet classroom with judges who hate being distracted). Very odd feeling having not used Silent in a while. Oh the lag!!! Darn quiet tho - perfect for the occasion and I just had to anticipate a bit more.


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Mar 11, 2014 17:48 |  #182

raptor3x wrote in post #16751448 (external link)
That statement was from doing it 20 times on my phone and tracking the average difference from the target of 7.0 seconds. Heck, if you just think of a nice Sousa march and keep subdividing in your head to 16ths it should be pretty much impossible to do any worse than 80ms. 50ms isn't really all that quick when we're talking about 'reacting' to a rhythmic event that can be anticipated. I'm not aware of any literature on this but it must be out there and my guess would be that the limit falls somewhere around 10-20ms. Also, consider this; Korsakov's Flight of the Bumblebee is traditionally played as sixteenth notes at a tempo of 144 BPM which corresponds to a window of ~26ms to play each note, and 144 BPM would be considered slow for those showing off their technical bravado.

Everyone is different and may not track rhythm that well. You cannot do it yourself then extrapolate to everyone else. Age, visual acuity, internal clock, eye/hand coordination, etc all play a part in this.


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Mar 11, 2014 17:56 |  #183

Gobeatty wrote in post #16751490 (external link)
I put my 6D in silent mode at my son's odyssey of the mind presentation (library quiet classroom with judges who hate being distracted). Very odd feeling having not used Silent in a while. Oh the lag!!! Darn quiet tho - perfect for the occasion and I just had to anticipate a bit more.

There is lag in silent mode? I thought quiet mode was really just the quieting of the mirror release back after the shot by slowing it down? According to all the Canon documentation, the return action is quieted and slowed, but the initial shutter capture isn't. Press and hold the shutter, the shot is already taken, then when you let go of the shutter button, everything is quietly and slowly "recocked" for the next shot.


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speedync
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Mar 11, 2014 20:14 |  #184

TeamSpeed wrote in post #16750612 (external link)
It isn't that far off, I would put the average time to .75 to 1.25. If you drag-race, you see this all the time. The reaction time isn't just human, it accounts for the mechanical part too. As always, I have experience and pictures to help back my comments. :)

Once you see something with your eyes, your brain registers it, it tells your body part to move, the mechanical object reacts and performs a task, etc, you would be surprised at the average elapsed time.

Those of us that drag race often can get our reaction times really close to .5 (which is nearly perfect when the green light hits), but the average person would lament why their times were over 1.0. We would laugh, but then explain all the parts of the equation]

Oh, you actually agree with me then. It's more down to the person using the equipment, than the equipment itself.




  
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OuttaCtrl
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Mar 11, 2014 20:43 |  #185

speedync wrote in post #16751839 (external link)
Oh, you actually agree with me then. It's more down to the person using the equipment, than the equipment itself.

The equipment is just a tool. Period. Don't rely on the tool as your solution or you become a Tool. ;)


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Gobeatty
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Mar 11, 2014 20:46 |  #186

TeamSpeed wrote in post #16751507 (external link)
There is lag in silent mode? I thought quiet mode was really just the quieting of the mirror release back after the shot by slowing it down? According to all the Canon documentation, the return action is quieted and slowed, but the initial shutter capture isn't. Press and hold the shutter, the shot is already taken, then when you let go of the shutter button, everything is quietly and slowly "recocked" for the next shot.

!!!

Could very well be! I wonder if it is just the psychology of feeling it go slower that gave me the feeling of greater lag. I believe when I chimped that I saw I was late on more shots than normal, but can't swear to this.

EDIT: Reading around the web I'm finding conflicting reports. Some say the mirror swings up slower, increasing lag, while others say the differences are all after the shot is made. Also not clear if the implementation differs between 5DIII, 6D and possibly other models.


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TeamSpeed
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Mar 11, 2014 22:05 |  #187

Gobeatty wrote in post #16751907 (external link)
!!!

Could very well be! I wonder if it is just the psychology of feeling it go slower that gave me the feeling of greater lag. I believe when I chimped that I saw I was late on more shots than normal, but can't swear to this.

EDIT: Reading around the web I'm finding conflicting reports. Some say the mirror swings up slower, increasing lag, while others say the differences are all after the shot is made. Also not clear if the implementation differs between 5DIII, 6D and possibly other models.

My comments are based on Canon material. They specifically call out the return portion of a shot that is slowed down and silenced. They don't mention any additional lag in the time it takes to capture a frame. This is from the 5D3 onwards anyways, so 6D and 1DX.


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kfreels
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Mar 12, 2014 00:04 |  #188

speedync wrote in post #16751839 (external link)
Oh, you actually agree with me then. It's more down to the person using the equipment, than the equipment itself.

Teamspeed...You are wasting your time. Get out now. People who don't want to get it aren't going to get it. The rest will do a simple calculation that 8fps is .125 seconds which is still faster than anyone here has claimed to be able to react and anticipate. They certainly don't understand that we don't just lay on the shutter and let the camera do the work. We anticipate as close as we can - say down to .5 seconds +/- and capture 3-5 frames around that moment at .125 increments which is a more refined capability than anyone can claim to do with anticipation alone. It's really simple math and if someone disagrees it's because they want to believe what they do and you'll never break through that with facts. Some people just don't science well.


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kin2son
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Mar 12, 2014 00:14 |  #189
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kfreels wrote in post #16752247 (external link)
Teamspeed...You are wasting your time. Get out now. People who don't want to get it aren't going to get it. The rest will do a simple calculation that 8fps is .125 seconds which is still faster than anyone here has claimed to be able to react and anticipate. They certainly don't understand that we don't just lay on the shutter and let the camera do the work. We anticipate as close as we can - say down to .5 seconds +/- and capture 3-5 frames around that moment at .125 increments which is a more refined capability than anyone can claim to do with anticipation alone. It's really simple math and if someone disagrees it's because they want to believe what they do and you'll never break through that with facts. Some people just don't science well.

That's exactly what I told Mornnb. No point wasting time.

And look what I got form the 6D fanboys? Calling me a hater...

Reaction and anticipation has nothing to do with the discussion.

One can anticipate and react at the quickest and best possible time, but as soon as you hold down the shutter button, the number of shots you get is down to FPS.

When the whole sequence happens in as short as a third of a second in pro sports, the difference between ~1 shot from a 6D vs 4 shots from a 1DX is significant to sporting pro, and if the soccer mums and dads here cannot acknowledge that, so be it.


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kfreels
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Mar 12, 2014 00:27 |  #190

kin2son wrote in post #16752259 (external link)
That's exactly what I told Mornnb. No point wasting time.

And look what I got form the 6D fanboys? Calling me a hater...

Reaction and anticipation has nothing to do with the discussion.

One can anticipate and react at the quickest and best possible time, but as soon as you hold down the shutter button, the number of shots you get is down to FPS.

When the whole sequence happens in as short as a third of a second in pro sports, the difference between ~1 shot from a 6D vs 4 shots from a 1DX is significant to sporting pro, and if the soccer mums and dads here cannot acknowledge that, so be it.

Yeah. Well, I'm no pro. Just a band dad. And I certainly acknowledge it. I want to see someone single-shot a spinning rifle in front of the face without blocking the face every time my daughter spins the rifle in a performance. With the 7D, I get at least one good one with every rifle toss.


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kin2son
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Mar 12, 2014 00:36 |  #191
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kfreels wrote in post #16752269 (external link)
Yeah. Well, I'm no pro. Just a band dad. And I certainly acknowledge it. I want to see someone single-shot a spinning rifle in front of the face without blocking the face every time my daughter spins the rifle in a performance. With the 7D, I get at least one good one with every rifle toss.

I am no sports pro either, yet I can totally see the benefits of having high FPS for pro sports tog.

Just look at Teamspeed's photo....

TeamSpeed wrote in post #16747393 (external link)
QUOTED IMAGE

You can react and anticipate when the action begins, but the number of shots you get within the whole sequence which happens in like half a second is down to FPS. And to sports pro, having more shots means you have more chances of getting a good shot. Simple as that.


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Charlie
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Mar 12, 2014 00:45 |  #192

kfreels wrote in post #16752247 (external link)
Teamspeed...You are wasting your time. Get out now. People who don't want to get it aren't going to get it. The rest will do a simple calculation that 8fps is .125 seconds which is still faster than anyone here has claimed to be able to react and anticipate. They certainly don't understand that we don't just lay on the shutter and let the camera do the work. We anticipate as close as we can - say down to .5 seconds +/- and capture 3-5 frames around that moment at .125 increments which is a more refined capability than anyone can claim to do with anticipation alone. It's really simple math and if someone disagrees it's because they want to believe what they do and you'll never break through that with facts. Some people just don't science well.

I did the calculation earlier, and it's still no big deal. I base my comments out of experience using and owning two sports cameras, the 30D back when it was still a sports camera, and the 7D. more often than that, the speed was simply too much, and two very similar shots produced no meaningful difference.

I mean that's such a crazy idea right? slowing down your camera so that you dont have to process more than you need. If you look at teamspeeds shots, 0.1 second difference in most of those shots would NOT have broke the image.

"the block" would simply be ripped from the hands
"the hair" would be twisted more
"the catch" closer to the body
ect.... assuming these are all rapid succession shots. The 6D does 4.5 FPS, it's not exactly slow, and the 5D3 does only 1.5 more and well regarded as a sports camera...... yet the 7D does 8fps, and 1D4 does 10?

heck, teamspeed even wrote that he turns down the speed for his 1D3.... that alone is a concession of speed somewhat, and his tolerance is a little slower. Mine happens to be a lot slower, simply because in my experience, it's too much trouble to deal with.

with all this obsession over FPS, why arent all budget aware shooters using sony's SLT A77?

12 fps absolutely crushes any consumer stuff canon makes. This thread is still about the 7D and fps right? ;)


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kin2son
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Mar 12, 2014 00:50 |  #193
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Charlie wrote in post #16752293 (external link)
I did the calculation earlier, and it's still no big deal.

It's no big deal to us because we aren't pro sports photographer.

The pros work under pressure to get the ultimate shot, get paid and feed their family, whereas soccer dads like us can simply let it slip as it's no biggie...

That's the difference.

And if you can't acknowledge that I am not sure if this is even worth discussing anymore.


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speedync
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Mar 12, 2014 00:52 |  #194

kfreels wrote in post #16752247 (external link)
Teamspeed...You are wasting your time. Get out now. People who don't want to get it aren't going to get it.

Why would he get out now? He's hung around for 13 pages, preaching to the converted on how impossible it is to do what has been done for dozens of years without the help of the absolute latest in technology. Keep it up I say. Might get another 13 pages.
Will you have a better chance at getting a particular shot with more fps? For sure. Is it impossible without? No. Or everyone would be shooting with 1DX's. Pro shooters eat off their work. Makes sense to buy thec latest fastest and greatest. Some of us shoot for fun. And some just like to clog up the interwebz showing how great they are, wishing they were pro's.




  
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Charlie
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Mar 12, 2014 01:19 |  #195

kin2son wrote in post #16752297 (external link)
It's no big deal to us because we aren't pro sports photographer.

The pros work under pressure to get the ultimate shot, get paid and feed their family, whereas soccer dads like us can simply let it slip as it's no biggie...

That's the difference.

And if you can't acknowledge that I am not sure if this is even worth discussing anymore.

this thread is about a parent shooting his kids.... I've already covered the "pro sports" angle, and there's no question that if you do this for a living, then the max amount of FPS will help you to the top of your game. There's really no argument there.

post 146


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