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FORUMS Canon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon EOS Digital Cameras 
Thread started 07 Mar 2014 (Friday) 06:23
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Is Canon losing the War ?

 
sjones
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Mar 13, 2014 11:44 |  #136

single_track wrote in post #16755615 (external link)
Agreed, for probably <0.5% of the AE-1 of the cameras ever produced. That is my point that as innovation moves on, a few people (specialty market) will hold on the 'older' technology. Most users move on.

Right, no one is disputing that the majority of people will embrace technological advancement if it proves beneficial and affordable. Technology is not always marketable, but overall, history has proven that 'the new' will dominate consumer choice (and usually for very good reason!).

Then again, some people adopt because they have no choice; their preferred product is no longer available.

We know all of this; but if someone says they are satisfied with their current product, they are not invariably obligated to upgrade in the future purely for innovation's sake.

Obviously, photography has a lot of purposes and functions, and part of it resides in the arts, which can at one point certainly benefit from technology, but at another point, completely and happily ignore it.

Convenience is a huge factor in gaining popularity, and certainly as a film user, I heard my share of DSLR users in the process of disparaging film contend that hey, time marches on, digital is more convenient, more affordable, more this and that.

Of course, now some of these certain DSLR users are likely having to reconsider their own argument, as time is not marching in their preferred direction amid the encroaching impact of camera phones and mirroless cameras.

That is, maybe technology is not always for the better, at least for everyone. And this is my point. We can talk about the masses, but for the individual, consumer trends are largely irrelevant in regards to their personal taste and preferences.

And if someone says that they would be happy if the camera currently in hand would be great if it was the last model ever available, then fine; we shouldn't automatically call BS just because the masses are likely to move in a different direction.

After all, this isn't a popularity contest, and really, in relation to the global population, anyone owning a camera/lens outfit that cost US$500 or more is operating in a niche sector already.


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andrikos
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Mar 13, 2014 11:49 |  #137

MakisM1 wrote in post #16755636 (external link)
Few are born appreciating $60 bottles of red wine either... :rolleyes:

The only thing about a $60 bottle of wine is that it costs $60.

Cameras, OTOH, you get what you pay for.


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MakisM1
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Mar 13, 2014 12:03 |  #138

andrikos wrote in post #16755680 (external link)
The only thing about a $60 bottle of wine is that it costs $60.

Cameras, OTOH, you get what you pay for.

Yeah, right...


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andrikos
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Mar 13, 2014 12:05 |  #139

MakisM1 wrote in post #16755707 (external link)
Yeah, right...

Any time you're ready for a double-blind wine test let me know. ;)


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MakisM1
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Mar 13, 2014 12:16 |  #140

What do you propose?


Gerry
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single_track
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Mar 13, 2014 12:30 |  #141

sjones wrote in post #16755671 (external link)
And if someone says that they would be happy if the camera currently in hand would be great if it was the last model ever available, then fine; we shouldn't automatically call BS just because the masses are likely to move in a different direction.

I am guessing that the BS comment is directed at me. If so, I apologize if I came across this way. I was not trying to offend anyone.

I was only stating that I too have felt that way numerous times over the years (35mm slr, medium format 645, medium format 6x7, large format 4x5, DSLR, etc.). Yet, as innovation presents newer options to me, I eventually bite and move on. I upgraded, not because of inadequacy, but rather convenience and new/different performance. (The only exception was going from analog to digital where obtaining the darkroom chemicals that I used for Lith B/W became impossible to easily procure.)

I assume that most 1D users started with something 'less', but upgraded to the 1D series because they could, and because it offered something they needed or wanted. Reasonable to assume that this same user might upgrade again someday. If they don't, great.

Sorry if anyone took my comments as anything other than general observations. No offense intended.


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cdifoto
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Mar 13, 2014 12:37 |  #142

single_track wrote in post #16755543 (external link)
I remember reading the same about the Canon AE-1, Box camera, and a thousand other items. I am not saying that the current camera don't surpass 99.99% of the population, but time marches on and innovation too. I am guessing that you did not start with the 1DII and 1DIII but upgraded to them. My guess is that you will upgrade again when a newer generation entices you enough. Does not mean you would have to, just want to.

My 40d still does what I need, but I went to the 5d, then the 70d. Heck, my Minolta x-700 and Elan IIe still could meet my needs but not with the convenience or performance that I desire.

Innovation in photography does not make the older stuff suddenly inadequate, just less convenient (relatively). I hung onto to analog photography and my darkroom long after most have converted. I still miss it but not for the convenience or performance.

I said I'd be okay with it, not that I wish it. ;)

My big A-HA moment was moving to the professional grade bodies. I was never as satisfied with any of my kit until I jumped into the 1 series. HOWEVER, my gear progression follows/followed my learning curve for photography in general, which means I could probably do everything I do now - or nearly so - with the "junk" I wrote off as inadequate long ago. What I know for sure though is that the 1 series has proven to me that I am the one who needs to step up my game - NOT Canon. Canon, and lighting manufacturers, make everything I need to produce fantastic images. It's up to me now. I have no excuses remaining.


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pwm2
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Mar 13, 2014 12:41 |  #143

kfreels wrote in post #16755533 (external link)
The SLR form factor will still remain and will still dominate over the current mirrorless design as it's just a pain in the rear to use heavy lenses with a camera designed to be held away from the body. Once the lag problem on the digital viewfinder is dealt with completely, and the mirror is gone, all sorts of new things become possible.

I don't think great digital viewfinders is very far away. We already have image sensors that supports extremely fast readouts - at least for partial resolution. And we have different display technologies that manages less than 5ms (even less than 1 ms) refresh speeds.

So I think mirrorless cameras can have solved most EVF issues by the time the camera manufacturers have managed to bring out a reasonably large set of medium to wide lenses optimized for the shorter registration distance.


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andrikos
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Mar 13, 2014 12:42 |  #144

MakisM1 wrote in post #16755754 (external link)
What do you propose?

OK, sorry for my O/T. Last post.

$5 and a $60 bottles of Cabernet Sauvignon* (unknown to you and the test administrator) of:
1) the same vintage. The older the vintage, the harder it will be to discriminate the two.
2) from the same wine region (Napa, Chile, South Africa, Australia, your choice)
3) Produced and cellared under similar or identical conditions.
4) Bought at the same time and cellared under identical conditions.

The test is administered by a (knowledgeable) neutral observer who knows how to serve wine. Bottles are covered to be concealed by all prying eyes.
Wine is decanted under identical conditions for both, poured in identical glasses and served to the "contestants".

Also, 2 triangle tests are set up where you pour 2 glasses of the same wine with the 3rd glass being the other wine. The simple task is to identify which two glasses are one wine and which is the 3rd.

If anything else, it's a lot of fun to see how overwhelmed palettes get when the brain is involved.
As you go through your SNPCs you'll find yourself overwhelmed if you're not a seasoned veteran.

That should give you a nice start. :)
Have fun!

* I chose Cab for its robustness. It's easier for beginners to identify.


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Ginga
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Mar 13, 2014 12:45 |  #145

I can't say that Sony and Nikon beats Canon in the AF department.

But they sure beat Canon when it comes to pure IQ and low ISO performance. The difference is kinda huge, and very important to my kind of shooting.

Then again, Canon beats Sony and Nikon in the lens department. But that is fine with me since I can use my L-glass on the wonderful A7R. :)


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kfreels
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Mar 13, 2014 13:19 |  #146

Ginga wrote in post #16755864 (external link)
I can't say that Sony and Nikon beats Canon in the AF department.

But they sure beat Canon when it comes to pure IQ and low ISO performance. The difference is kinda huge, and very important to my kind of shooting.

Then again, Canon beats Sony and Nikon in the lens department. But that is fine with me since I can use my L-glass on the wonderful A7R. :)

Well, they do...for the moment. But as you said, it depends on what you shoot. On my end, I would rather have all the shots of my daughter in color guard in focus rather than miss some due to lower fps or slower, less capable AF, or just plain out of focus shots. A little noise in the black of the uniform just isn't important to me. You can't even see it at screen sizes which is where these always end up. It would be nice for some of the other things I shoot, but not worth the trade-off to me when all I have to do is wait a little longer. At some point Canon will make a similar leap and when they do I'll have the best of both worlds again....until someone else makes another leap. I certainly don't plan to bounce back and forth between systems.


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radlux
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Mar 13, 2014 13:25 |  #147

I shoot both Canon and Nikon for the past 3 years and I do feel Nikon has a marked advantage on the AF and ISO fronts. I shoot a lot of UWA stuff in low light so Nikon's 14-24 f2.8 has been the icing on the cake. Hoping for a fightback from Canon soon though...although they are doing quite well on the video front :-)


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Lowner
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Mar 13, 2014 13:51 |  #148

radlux wrote in post #16755985 (external link)
.....Hoping for a fightback from Canon soon though...although they are doing quite well on the video front :-)

Not interested in video in the slightest. If I was I'd buy myself a video camera, not a DSLR.


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David ­ Arbogast
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Mar 13, 2014 14:07 |  #149

Lowner wrote in post #16756059 (external link)
Not interested in video in the slightest. If I was I'd buy myself a video camera, not a DSLR.

A DSLR is already a video camera. There is no escape, resistance is futile.

I also share your desire for a photography-only camera body, but it's about as likely as a photo op with a magical fairy riding on a unicorn fleeing from angry army of garden gnomes. In this sometimes painful reality we exist in video is stuck to our photography cameras like a Goa'uld to a human host.


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sjones
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Mar 13, 2014 14:08 |  #150

single_track wrote in post #16755790 (external link)
I am guessing that the BS comment is directed at me. If so, I apologize if I came across this way. I was not trying to offend anyone.

I was only stating that I too have felt that way numerous times over the years (35mm slr, medium format 645, medium format 6x7, large format 4x5, DSLR, etc.). Yet, as innovation presents newer options to me, I eventually bite and move on. I upgraded, not because of inadequacy, but rather convenience and new/different performance. (The only exception was going from analog to digital where obtaining the darkroom chemicals that I used for Lith B/W became impossible to easily procure.)

I assume that most 1D users started with something 'less', but upgraded to the 1D series because they could, and because it offered something they needed or wanted. Reasonable to assume that this same user might upgrade again someday. If they don't, great.

Sorry if anyone took my comments as anything other than general observations. No offense intended.

Fair enough, and your progression understandably reflects that of most photographers. Yet, unlike a lot of folks, you've certainly been able to test the field over the years.

But as cdifoto noted, there comes a point where one realizes that the latest innovation is not going to serve as an effective elixir, whereby improvement will come through enhanced skills and creativity, not tools. Convenience is another matter.

Undoubtedly, this level of sufficiency depends on the needs and style of the photographer.

As someone who moved from digital to film, I found what I needed and simply liked by moving backwards---future innovations ain't going to help much, but neither will buying Leica's best 50mm; at least in regards to my style and needs.

Others are still waiting for further innovation to fulfill their vision, and advancements perhaps unimaginable now likely await.

And different reasons exists as to why people might change, although even these cases are not always motivated by advancements.

For example, I use a rangefinder, and currently, I don't foresee using any other type of camera. But who knows, in the future, I might want to try a twin-lens reflex to muck about with a square format.

To me, the concern is that one thing should'nt obliterate the other, in the sense that I certainly wouldn't want software, with all of its conveniences and sophisticated means of emulation, to wipe out the existence of pianos, violins, or for that matter, the human voice (in terms of singing).

Likewise, the tools of photography will be successively rendered increasingly niche, an inevitability that I recognize, but retaining access to or availability of previous methods and mediums remains important to not only to the art but also to securing the intangible (and highly subjective) joys that the various processes themselves offer.

In regards to expressive mediums, limitation, especially when imposed by commercial interests, is seldom a good thing.

So when any camera medium, design, or company "loses a war," it's not good for photography overall.


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