Approve the Cookies
This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies and our Privacy Policy.
OK
Index  •   • New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear  •   • Reviews
Guest
New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear  •   • Reviews
Register to forums    Log in

 
FORUMS Canon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon EOS Digital Cameras 
Thread started 05 Mar 2014 (Wednesday) 22:13
Search threadPrev/next
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)

My 6D is a lot better sports camera than my 7d

 
Preeb
Goldmember
Avatar
2,646 posts
Gallery: 134 photos
Best ofs: 1
Likes: 998
Joined Sep 2011
Location: Logan County, CO
     
Mar 14, 2014 09:27 as a reply to  @ post 16756826 |  #226

palad1n wrote in post #16754908 (external link)
I think there is a difference between when you know some undefined precious moment is coming (your brain takes time to calculate if it is a wanted moment you want to capture or not) VS when you expect just a greenbox for example, which appears in defined range in following seconds during controlled test and your brain is set to see the greenbox and then pull the trigger.

In the sort of situation being discussed here, why are you "calculating" in the middle of the action? You are shooting with a digital image recorder. I'd be shooting first and "calculating" in post. Or calculating while I train myself in the sport I'm going to shoot so that my reactions are tuned before I start shooting

Sports photographers took lots of great photos of perfectly timed action in the days before before digital when it was a lot more costly to take wasted frames, and they had no way to be certain what they had until the film was developed. Those guys were good, they knew their equipment, and they knew their subject so well that they were able to anticipate the exact moment when they needed to start the capture, and those same techniques are pertinent to shooting with a slower FPS digital SLR. That's not to say that they didn't miss more often than they hit, but they got the job done.

The same can be done with any decent DSLR, regardless of frame rate. A slower camera just takes more practice with your gear and more knowledge of the activity you are shooting.

And don't expect a high keeper to reject rate. ;)


Rick
6D Mark II - EF 17-40 f4 L -- EF 100mm f2.8 L IS Macro -- EF 70-200 f4 L IS w/1.4 II TC

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)
fogboundturtle
Senior Member
735 posts
Likes: 36
Joined Mar 2010
     
Mar 14, 2014 09:46 |  #227

Preeb wrote in post #16757921 (external link)
In the sort of situation being discussed here, why are you "calculating" in the middle of the action? You are shooting with a digital image recorder. I'd be shooting first and "calculating" in post. Or calculating while I train myself in the sport I'm going to shoot so that my reactions are tuned before I start shooting

Sports photographers took lots of great photos of perfectly timed action in the days before before digital when it was a lot more costly to take wasted frames, and they had no way to be certain what they had until the film was developed. Those guys were good, they knew their equipment, and they knew their subject so well that they were able to anticipate the exact moment when they needed to start the capture, and those same techniques are pertinent to shooting with a slower FPS digital SLR. That's not to say that they didn't miss more often than they hit, but they got the job done.

The same can be done with any decent DSLR, regardless of frame rate. A slower camera just takes more practice with your gear and more knowledge of the activity you are shooting.

And don't expect a high keeper to reject rate. ;)

For every 100 pictures, if you have 10 good one, you have done a good job. That's how I see sports photography.


Canon 5D Mark III, Canon 70D, Canon EF 24-105L, Tamron 150-600mm, Tamron 70-200 F2.8 DI VC USD, Sony A7r, Sony FE 55mm F1.8

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
apersson850
Cream of the Crop
Avatar
12,275 posts
Gallery: 11 photos
Likes: 409
Joined Nov 2007
Location: Traryd, Sweden
     
Mar 14, 2014 09:52 as a reply to  @ fogboundturtle's post |  #228

Hmm, if I get one really good picture every year, then I'm happy... :confused:


Anders

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
MakisM1
Cream of the Crop
Avatar
5,654 posts
Gallery: 28 photos
Likes: 386
Joined Dec 2011
Location: Houston
     
Mar 14, 2014 09:54 |  #229

The F250 motor drive (with a 250 exposure capacity) was introduced for the Nikon F in 1960. So, yes sports photographers practiced their art, but spray and pray was around longer than we think...

I am sure that there are iconic photos taken with a Graflex, but it's just that. A confluence of many factors, one of which was skill, to produce a keeper.


Gerry
Canon 5D MkIII/Canon 60D/Canon EF-S 18-200/Canon EF 24-70L USM II/Canon EF 70-200L 2.8 USM II/Canon EF 50 f1.8 II/Σ 8-16/ 430 EXII
OS: Linux Ubuntu/PostProcessing: Darktable/Image Processing: GIMP

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
kfreels
Goldmember
Avatar
4,297 posts
Likes: 6
Joined Aug 2010
Location: Princeton, IN
     
Mar 14, 2014 14:40 |  #230

I just don't understand how "spray and pray" even applies. That's not what sports photographers, or people like me just shooting their kids in sports and other fast action events do. We time everything just like any other person who only has 1 fps. We follow the action, anticipate, and when we see a moment where we anticipate a good shot, we fire off a short burst to catch that moment in various fractions of a second. That is the process no matter how many fps you have on your camera.

And if you have a longer moment of several seconds of good action, anyone, regardless of the number of fps that their camera has, will lay on the shutter for a second or two.

The only difference between the camera that has the higher and lower fps is the number of shots that you have to choose from afterwords. If you have more fps, you have more to choose from. And when action is fast, those fractions of a second can make the difference between a ball getting ready to hit someone in the face, or the ball actually impacting someone in the face while their skin reacts in waves from the impact. With lower fps you can get that perfect moment, but you are increasing your odds with more fps.

If shooting like that is "spray and pray", the alternate equivalent is simply "poke and pray" because the slower your fps, the more you are relying on luck.


I am serious....and don't call me Shirley.
Canon 7D and a bunch of other stuff

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
MakisM1
Cream of the Crop
Avatar
5,654 posts
Gallery: 28 photos
Likes: 386
Joined Dec 2011
Location: Houston
     
Mar 14, 2014 14:48 |  #231

kfreels wrote in post #16758720 (external link)
I just don't understand how "spray and pray" even applies. That's not what sports photographers, or people like me just shooting their kids in sports and other fast action events do. We time everything just like any other person who only has 1 fps. We follow the action, anticipate, and when we see a moment where we anticipate a good shot, we fire off a short burst to catch that moment in various fractions of a second. That is the process no matter how many fps you have on your camera.

And if you have a longer moment of several seconds of good action, anyone, regardless of the number of fps that their camera has, will lay on the shutter for a second or two.

The only difference between the camera that has the higher and lower fps is the number of shots that you have to choose from afterwords. If you have more fps, you have more to choose from. And when action is fast, those fractions of a second can make the difference between a ball getting ready to hit someone in the face, or the ball actually impacting someone in the face while their skin reacts in waves from the impact. With lower fps you can get that perfect moment, but you are increasing your odds with more fps.

If shooting like that is "spray and pray", the alternate equivalent is simply "poke and pray" because the slower your fps, the more you are relying on luck.

+1

Often you see video or (older film) with fashion or glamour shooting, where the photographer fires in short bursts of high FPS. It's not sports, or even 'action', but the models are not static either. The difference of 2/10ths of a second in expression, the glint of the eye... can make a difference.

Often I find even though I am in single shot (not One-Shot) mode, I tap the shutter button two or three times in quick succession, as the subject's eyes light up!


Gerry
Canon 5D MkIII/Canon 60D/Canon EF-S 18-200/Canon EF 24-70L USM II/Canon EF 70-200L 2.8 USM II/Canon EF 50 f1.8 II/Σ 8-16/ 430 EXII
OS: Linux Ubuntu/PostProcessing: Darktable/Image Processing: GIMP

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Mornnb
Goldmember
1,646 posts
Gallery: 6 photos
Likes: 23
Joined Aug 2012
Location: Sydney
     
Mar 14, 2014 16:19 |  #232

kfreels wrote in post #16758720 (external link)
I just don't understand how "spray and pray" even applies. That's not what sports photographers, or people like me just shooting their kids in sports and other fast action events do. We time everything just like any other person who only has 1 fps. We follow the action, anticipate, and when we see a moment where we anticipate a good shot, we fire off a short burst to catch that moment in various fractions of a second. That is the process no matter how many fps you have on your camera.

EXACTLY!
And in the film age of 1 FPS, and sure if you were lucky you could get a decent shot with anticipation and timing. Today with both anticipation, timing and high FPS you can feel confident that you will walk away with a number of good shots you can use.
Modern sports photographers thanks to cameras like a 1DX can feel confident that they will usually get the shot they wanted.

MakisM1 wrote in post #16758755 (external link)
+1

Often you see video or (older film) with fashion or glamour shooting, where the photographer fires in short bursts of high FPS. It's not sports, or even 'action', but the models are not static either. The difference of 2/10ths of a second in expression, the glint of the eye... can make a difference.

Expression matters just as much with sports photography, you really want a shot that captures the struggle and effort the athlete is going through. 2/10s of a second is also a long period of time in fast moving sports, it is the difference between the start of a tackle and the middle of a tackle.

Charlie wrote in post #16752846 (external link)
right, but you need to keep in mind that this debate is not just about faster gear.

for example: 60D or 7D is an open and shut door. 6D or 5D3, again, open shut. 1D3 or 1D4 again, open shut.

this is about the tradeoff between image quality and continuous shooting.

7D or 5D3 which is better and why?
7D or 6D?
70D or 6D?
60D or 6D?

at which point will you favor shutter speed for image q?

If we're talking about sports, the 7D in every case, high frame rate is simply more important than low noise high ISO.
It's a choice between the 1DX or 7D for sports, which ever you can afford.
Hopefully the rumoured 10FPS 7D mark 2 will be out soon.

kin2son wrote in post #16752259 (external link)
That's exactly what I told Mornnb. No point wasting time.

And look what I got form the 6D fanboys? Calling me a hater..

I am a 6D fanboy, it's image sensor is perfect and the camera is wonderfully lightweight. But I also shoot sports and need a camera that can do a decent job at it, that's the 7D not the 6D...

kfreels wrote in post #16752247 (external link)
Teamspeed...You are wasting your time. Get out now. People who don't want to get it aren't going to get it. The rest will do a simple calculation that 8fps is .125 seconds which is still faster than anyone here has claimed to be able to react and anticipate. They certainly don't understand that we don't just lay on the shutter and let the camera do the work. We anticipate as close as we can - say down to .5 seconds +/- and capture 3-5 frames around that moment at .125 increments which is a more refined capability than anyone can claim to do with anticipation alone. It's really simple math and if someone disagrees it's because they want to believe what they do and you'll never break through that with facts. Some people just don't science well.


Can everyone re-read this comment by kfreels, and stop arguing please?


Canon 5D Mark III - Leica M240
EF 16-35mm F/4 IS L - EF 14mm f/2.8 L II - - EF 17mm TS-E L - EF 24-70mm f/2.8 L II - EF 70-200mm IS II f/2.8 L - Sigma 35mm f/1.4 Art - Sigma 85mm f/1.4 EX
Voigtlander 15mm III - 28mm Elmarit-M ASPH - 35mm f/1.4 Summilux-M FLE - 50mm f/1.4 Summilux-M ASPH
500px (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
OuttaCtrl
Senior Member
Avatar
381 posts
Joined Oct 2012
Location: San Jose, CA
     
Mar 14, 2014 17:54 |  #233

kfreels wrote in post #16758720 (external link)
I just don't understand how "spray and pray" even applies. That's not what sports photographers, or people like me just shooting their kids in sports and other fast action events do. We time everything just like any other person who only has 1 fps. We follow the action, anticipate, and when we see a moment where we anticipate a good shot, we fire off a short burst to catch that moment in various fractions of a second. That is the process no matter how many fps you have on your camera...



As I mentioned before there is a time and place to for everything but blindly "spray and Pray" is not one of them. I call this type of rapid shots following a fast moving object as "stitching". I call it stitching because like a needle and thread there is a continuous pattern of images that is progressive and with definition. Such as a track and field runner I would stitch him/her by constantly keeping them on my center focus.

Spray and pray to me is shooting all over the viewfinder with no consistency or target for the center focus point. A series of shots that had no intent, composition, or target. It is like when you watch the news of a famous celebrity and you see the paparazzi holding their $$$$ DSLR over their heads and points them at the celebrity's general direction. Now that is spray and pray.


Here is my example of my version of stitching but combined them into one photo aka action sequence.

IMAGE: https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7048/13156182894_15bf37c056_b.jpg
IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/m3yS​Py  (external link)

Cameras: 5D III Gripped | 1D MK 3 | 70D
Lens: 18-135 STM | 24-70 L MKII | 70-200 L IS MKII
PC: i7-3930K | 32GB Kingston Hyper-X | nVidia Quadro 4000 | Asus P9X79 Pro | 27" Samsung SA monitor | 34" LG 34UM95-P | Spyder 4 Elite

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
MakisM1
Cream of the Crop
Avatar
5,654 posts
Gallery: 28 photos
Likes: 386
Joined Dec 2011
Location: Houston
     
Mar 14, 2014 18:36 |  #234

Mornnb wrote in post #16758988 (external link)
EXACTLY!
...
Expression matters just as much with sports photography, you really want a shot that captures the struggle and effort the athlete is going through. 2/10s of a second is also a long period of time in fast moving sports, it is the difference between the start of a tackle and the middle of a tackle.

My point was that even for a 'slow' event as a glamour shoot (with constant lights in the times of yore) the photographer would still use short bursts to capture minute differences in expression.

Perhaps you might wish to check out the attitude in admonishing other people to read or re-read something and read yourself in order to participate in the discussion...:rolleyes:


Gerry
Canon 5D MkIII/Canon 60D/Canon EF-S 18-200/Canon EF 24-70L USM II/Canon EF 70-200L 2.8 USM II/Canon EF 50 f1.8 II/Σ 8-16/ 430 EXII
OS: Linux Ubuntu/PostProcessing: Darktable/Image Processing: GIMP

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Mornnb
Goldmember
1,646 posts
Gallery: 6 photos
Likes: 23
Joined Aug 2012
Location: Sydney
     
Mar 14, 2014 19:59 |  #235

MakisM1 wrote in post #16759250 (external link)
My point was that even for a 'slow' event as a glamour shoot (with constant lights in the times of yore) the photographer would still use short bursts to capture minute differences in expression.

Umm yes I read that... I was point out that capturing the right expression is just as important in sports. Facial expression adds a lot to a sports photo, it can capture the effort and passion of the athlete.


Canon 5D Mark III - Leica M240
EF 16-35mm F/4 IS L - EF 14mm f/2.8 L II - - EF 17mm TS-E L - EF 24-70mm f/2.8 L II - EF 70-200mm IS II f/2.8 L - Sigma 35mm f/1.4 Art - Sigma 85mm f/1.4 EX
Voigtlander 15mm III - 28mm Elmarit-M ASPH - 35mm f/1.4 Summilux-M FLE - 50mm f/1.4 Summilux-M ASPH
500px (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Mark_Mason
Senior Member
Avatar
597 posts
Gallery: 2 photos
Likes: 114
Joined Apr 2007
Location: Hillsboro, Oregon
     
Mar 14, 2014 20:30 |  #236

Frame rate matters. I shoot a lot of shooters that are shooting machineguns on full auto. No one here can time a muzzle flash and get it right. A high frame rate burst during a burst of fire, will get you more keepers per shoot. It's pretty simple math.

IMAGE: http://m-mason.smugmug.com/Shooting/Organized-Gatherings/Wasco-Dealer-Demo-071209-1/i-tMvGQpN/1/M/20090712_2-M.jpg

Canon Stuff

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Mike55
Goldmember
Avatar
4,206 posts
Likes: 9
Joined Jun 2007
Location: Chicago, Illinois
     
Mar 14, 2014 20:32 |  #237

It all depends on autofocus. The 7D is known for inconsistent AF in AI Servo during burst.

Also, I'd rather have 4 clean, focused frames than 8 okay frames.


6D | 70D | 24-105 L IS | 17-40 L | 300 F4 L IS | 50 1.8 II | 1.4x II | LR5 | HV30 | bug spray | wilderness
Gallatin National Forest, Montana (external link)/Lassen Volcanic NP Campgrounds (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Mark_Mason
Senior Member
Avatar
597 posts
Gallery: 2 photos
Likes: 114
Joined Apr 2007
Location: Hillsboro, Oregon
     
Mar 14, 2014 20:38 |  #238

Mike55 wrote in post #16759467 (external link)
It all depends on autofocus. The 7D is known for inconsistent AF in AI Servo during burst.

Also, I'd rather have 4 clean, focused frames than 8 okay frames.

I don't find myself using AI Servo much, but that's good to know.


Canon Stuff

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
TeamSpeed
01010100 01010011
Avatar
39,001 posts
Gallery: 115 photos
Best ofs: 2
Likes: 7474
Joined May 2002
Location: Midwest
     
Mar 14, 2014 20:42 |  #239

Mark_Mason wrote in post #16759470 (external link)
I don't find myself using AI Servo much, but that's good to know.

The 7D has had some that had AF issues, but it is not a rampant issue. Much like the issues around the 70D currently, if there was a problem, it was with a batch or regional manufacturing lot.

We opened up this poll for those to get very vocal about the AF issue, and out of 250 or so, I think the final tally was around 10% that had issues requiring Canon to look at the cameras, or were verified to be problematic. I personally had 4, and shot many fast-paced events through the years, with nary an issue.

https://photography-on-the.net …6318&highlight=​7d+af+poll

Mike would be added to the 3rd up from the bottom, putting that number at 14. Thought I would check in to see how this thread is going, pretty much the same ol' stuff. :)

Checking back out for a while, let's see where this is 3 days from now. :)


Past Equipment | My Personal Gallery (external link) My Business Gallery (external link)
For Sale: Sigma USB Dock

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
firefighter4u
Goldmember
Avatar
1,160 posts
Gallery: 2 photos
Likes: 83
Joined Jul 2009
Location: Bradford, Pa
     
Mar 14, 2014 20:49 |  #240

i can't believe this horse is still alive.....


R6; 6D; 7D; 450D; Canon 85 1.4L; 50 1.4; 70-200 2.8L II; Tamron 17-50 2.8; Tamron 18-270 VC; Genesis 200; 430EX; YN 560II

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)

37,185 views & 0 likes for this thread
My 6D is a lot better sports camera than my 7d
FORUMS Canon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon EOS Digital Cameras 
AAA
x 1600
y 1600

Jump to forum...   •  Rules   •  Index   •  New posts   •  RTAT   •  'Best of'   •  Gallery   •  Gear   •  Reviews   •  Member list   •  Polls   •  Image rules   •  Search   •  Password reset

Not a member yet?
Register to forums
Registered members may log in to forums and access all the features: full search, image upload, follow forums, own gear list and ratings, likes, more forums, private messaging, thread follow, notifications, own gallery, all settings, view hosted photos, own reviews, see more and do more... and all is free. Don't be a stranger - register now and start posting!


COOKIES DISCLAIMER: This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies and to our privacy policy.
Privacy policy and cookie usage info.


POWERED BY AMASS forum software 2.1forum software
version 2.1 /
code and design
by Pekka Saarinen ©
for photography-on-the.net

Latest registered member is Edwards_1
910 guests, 322 members online
Simultaneous users record so far is 15144, that happened on Nov 22, 2018

Photography-on-the.net Digital Photography Forums is the website for photographers and all who love great photos, camera and post processing techniques, gear talk, discussion and sharing. Professionals, hobbyists, newbies and those who don't even own a camera -- all are welcome regardless of skill, favourite brand, gear, gender or age. Registering and usage is free.