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Thread started 15 Mar 2014 (Saturday) 09:58
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Well crap I did it.... bye bye 6D... hello 5D3!

 
Bakewell
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Mar 19, 2014 19:29 |  #271
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mgk2 wrote in post #16771349 (external link)
Are you acknowledging that the outer points on 6D are unreliable for moving subjects and therefore shouldn't be used at all?

And if you really think ai servo automatic is more accurate/precise/easie​r then you can't be anymore wrong I'm afraid.....

On 6D you really only have one option - single center point for moving subjects.

Maybe re-read this thread you participated in...

https://photography-on-the.net …/showthread.php​?t=1366521

Post 49 in particular may be helpful...


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Mar 19, 2014 19:50 |  #272

Nick_Reading.UK wrote in post #16771042 (external link)
I have this question for 6d owners.. If money wasn't an issue or they were both the same price which one would you choose??

I asked the same question last year got a big response of one.


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Mar 19, 2014 19:53 |  #273

Bakewell wrote in post #16771312 (external link)
Why would I post pics using the outer points? I would never attempt that, and neither should anyone else. IMO, use AI Servo Automatic only on the 6D for moving subjects...

Ok then, lets see some action shots of yours using your suggestion above. You do have some don't you?

Or are you going to state the same old arguement that you don't need or have to again? I just would like to see you offer some real evidence provided by you on how well it works. The overall consenses by the community as well as many pros such as Rick Sammon is it doesn't work well on many bodies including the 6d so it something he doesn't recommend when shooting moving subjects.

I respect you wanting to defend the camera body you use but think you fail to realize its shortcomings when compared to bodies designed for action type photography.


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Mar 19, 2014 19:55 |  #274

Talley wrote in post #16771220 (external link)
Well the only solution is to keep the 6D, add the 5D3 and also add the 70D and most possibly include the 1Dx also.

This will shut all you up.

I doubt that very seriously. :(


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Mar 19, 2014 20:02 |  #275

Thorrulz wrote in post #16771291 (external link)
Did you ever get around to taking and posting some photos with the outer focusing points of the 6d set to ai servo? I could have sworn I saw you at last night's hockey game taking pics with all the other sports photogs.

You definitely stood out among all the other shooters that had either the 1d or d3 bodies. Of course I think you like to stand out, don't you?;)

Not to get into the middle of this, but I did post a bunch of those back a few months ago, using my Sigma 120-300 2.8 at 300mm f/2.8 in another thread, I don;t remember which one. Cars and runners in the park, not heavy action though... It was only a test for POTN :)

I also used my 6D for BIF a few times in a pinch when, for various reasons, I was not using my 7D or 70D at the moment. But for birds I either use the center point or all 11 points auto AI Servo. Using one off center point for my BIF shooting would be impractical and pointless, even if that off-center point was a cross type one. For birds I need room for the wings in the frame, which are obviously flapping all over the place, I don't want to cut them off, plus many birds are unpredictable, and move around in the frame, as well as my tele lens is moving too. So I must keep the bird as much in the center as possible that's why shooting with one isolated off center point with the 6D would be impractical, whether it's awesome or not.
But again, I use my other cameras for that for fps, reach, etc.

What Bakewell is saying that he never uses one outer point alone for tracking; he uses the all-11 point automatic AI Servo, which he has discussed before. So that's why the question didn't make much sense to him so to speak.
But please don't shoot the messenger :)


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Charlie
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Mar 19, 2014 20:15 |  #276

DwainRowe wrote in post #16771420 (external link)
I doubt that very seriously. :(

lol, true

anyways, you can track fine with the 6D. Sequence with 50mm F1.2 @ 1.2.

crazy thing is that I have photos of tracking with a 5D2, which is even more impossible ;)

the 6D tracks fine, the 5D3 is dead simple no nonsense tracking, that's the main difference.


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Bakewell
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Mar 19, 2014 20:28 |  #277
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Thorrulz wrote in post #16771418 (external link)
Ok then, lets see some action shots of yours using your suggestion above. You do have some don't you?

Or are you going to state the same old arguement that you don't need or have to again? I just would like to see you offer some real evidence provided by you on how well it works. The overall consenses by the community as well as many pros such as Rick Sammon is it doesn't work well on many bodies including the 6d so it something he doesn't recommend when shooting moving subjects.

I respect you wanting to defend the camera body you use but think you fail to realize its shortcomings when compared to bodies designed for action type photography.

Maybe this thread would be of benefit to you also...

https://photography-on-the.net …/showthread.php​?t=1366521

again post 49...BTW there's very good example pics for you to see. If you haven't seen any examples it can be only because you're not looking. Any questions please ask...


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mgk2
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Mar 19, 2014 20:36 |  #278
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Charlie wrote in post #16771454 (external link)
lol, true

anyways, you can track fine with the 6D. Sequence with 50mm F1.2 @ 1.2.

That's all with single center point weren't they?

After re-reading Bakewell's posts, I think he believes using single point (whether center or outer) is the wrong way of doing tracking.

It seems that he's all for ai servo automatic for moving subjects.

It might work for Gabe as he's shooting birds with uncluttered background, but for other moving subjects the camera can often 'fooled' or guess wrong.

The gap between the points can also cause issue if your desired 'point of focus' falls within it.

Therefore the main issue seems to be the fact that Bakewell has difficulties acknowledging that higher end models have other AF tracking modes, in which they offer easier way to track than single point (expansion for example) yet still offers precise enough result that is crucial for photographers that shoots moving subject all the time.

Using 'Ai servo automatic' for tracking moving subjects is similar to using greenbox mode to capture a scene - the camera *intelligently* decides for you what kind of scene you are trying to capture, then assigning what *it thinks* is the appropriate setting.

Does it work sometimes? Sure. Is there better alternative for the same job? Most definitely.




  
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Bakewell
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Mar 19, 2014 20:56 |  #279
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mgk2 wrote in post #16771497 (external link)
That's all with single center point weren't they?

After re-reading Bakewell's posts, I think he believes using single point (whether center or outer) is the wrong way of doing tracking.

It seems that he's all for ai servo automatic for moving subjects.

It might work for Gabe as he's shooting birds with uncluttered background, but for other moving subjects the camera can often 'fooled' or guess wrong.

The gap between the points can also cause issue if that's your desired 'point of focus'.

It seems that Bakewell can't acknowledge that higher end models have other models which offer easier way to track than single point (expansion for example) yet still offers precise enough result that is crucial for photographers that shoots moving subject all the time.

Yes, single point tracking will totally mess you up when using AI Servo on the 6D. I never said anything negative regarding other camera AF systems. I said that people are trashing the 6D AF system without bothering to learn or understand it. I'm trying to inform people as to how the 6D can do action shots. If people choose not to learn...so be it. Some people continue to espouse the same incorrect "facts" over and over again.


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Talley
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Mar 19, 2014 21:09 |  #280

Bakewell wrote in post #16771536 (external link)
Yes, single point tracking will totally mess you up when using AI Servo on the 6D. I never said anything negative regarding other camera AF systems. I said that people are trashing the 6D AF system without bothering to learn or understand it. I'm trying to inform people as to how the 6D can do action shots. If people choose not to learn...so be it. Some people continue to espouse the same incorrect "facts" over and over again.

Ya I get it now. I didn't realize the 11 point automatic servo concentrated on the center and only used the outer points as a "Help" similar to the zone/expansion on the 7D except the 6D uses the center only then all surrounding are assist.

Is this right?... If so it makes sense and I have never tried to do it this way. Only single point servo.

I would suspect the priority options for servo in the custom function would work on the 11 point servo automatic so you can tell it to stay locked on longer then jumping around.

I'm gonna have to try that out.


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dinanm3atl
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Mar 19, 2014 21:14 |  #281

form wrote in post #16760366 (external link)
There's marketing for you.

5d3 is only better because it's not truncated in the things relevant to more professional photographers, like CF card slots, 1/8000 ss, 1/200+ flash sync, pc sync port...and the more AF points (which really isn't that great for tracking since they can't track color like the 1dx/Nikon cameras).


Isn't really that great for tracking? Interesting...


http://www.racemsm.com​/?p=3770 (external link)


AI Servo. Night time. Car going 100+ MPH... sharp photos all night long.

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Or maybe some in the daylight?


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Shooting directly into the sun... tracking car.


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gabebalazs
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Mar 19, 2014 21:15 |  #282

mgk2 wrote in post #16771497 (external link)
That's all with single center point weren't they?

After re-reading Bakewell's posts, I think he believes using single point (whether center or outer) is the wrong way of doing tracking.

It seems that he's all for ai servo automatic for moving subjects.

It might work for Gabe as he's shooting birds with uncluttered background, but for other moving subjects the camera can often 'fooled' or guess wrong.

The gap between the points can also cause issue if your desired 'point of focus' falls within it.

Therefore the main issue seems to be the fact that Bakewell has difficulties acknowledging that higher end models have other AF tracking modes, in which they offer easier way to track than single point (expansion for example) yet still offers precise enough result that is crucial for photographers that shoots moving subject all the time.

Using 'Ai servo automatic' for tracking moving subjects is similar to using greenbox mode to capture a scene - the camera *intelligently* decides for you what kind of scene you are trying to capture, then assigning what *it thinks* is the appropriate setting.

Does it work sometimes? Sure. Is there better alternative for the same job? Most definitely.

I don't think that's quite true.

My 6D and 70D (just tested them this afternoon), as well as a bunch of other Canon bodies as mentioned before, behave the same way in AI automatic Servo, namely in "all AF points" auto mode you place the starting AF point (center on the 6D, any one point you select on the 70D) over your subject that you want to track. Then start shooting/tracking. The cameras will track the subject and if the subject leaves the starting AF point, other AF points will take over and track that same subject. So ideally, technically, on-paper etc. the our desired subject is what the camera will track and not a random subject or scene that the camera "intelligently" thinks it should focus on. This is actually clearly demonstrated in the B&H video series on the 7D AF system.
This is very easily observable in the 7D or 70D, since the active AF points are displayed in the viewfinder and actually follow the desired subject.
In the 6D they are not illuminated, but after shooting some test images, the desired subject is tracked, even when it leaves the center AF point.
But of course as mentioned, the 6D may have larger gaps between AF points and if the subject falls into these gaps (e.g. not large enough or not enough detail), then the camera gets confused and starts not so "intelligently" picking random stuff to focus on. It's not random, but it's certainly not our desired subject.

Not sure if that's what you were thinking of or not, but the fact is it's not exactly the same as the green box mode in One Shot AF mode.


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Talley
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Mar 19, 2014 21:18 |  #283

Bakewell wrote in post #16771536 (external link)
Yes, single point tracking will totally mess you up when using AI Servo on the 6D. I never said anything negative regarding other camera AF systems. I said that people are trashing the 6D AF system without bothering to learn or understand it. I'm trying to inform people as to how the 6D can do action shots. If people choose not to learn...so be it. Some people continue to espouse the same incorrect "facts" over and over again.

Talley wrote in post #16771565 (external link)
Ya I get it now. I didn't realize the 11 point automatic servo concentrated on the center and only used the outer points as a "Help" similar to the zone/expansion on the 7D except the 6D uses the center only then all surrounding are assist.

Is this right?... If so it makes sense and I have never tried to do it this way. Only single point servo.

I would suspect the priority options for servo in the custom function would work on the 11 point servo automatic so you can tell it to stay locked on longer then jumping around.

I'm gonna have to try that out.

Bakewell wrote in post #16771536 (external link)
2. AI Servo Automatic - The center point only is used to acquire focus on the desired subject. If the moving subject veres off of the center point then the focus function is handed off to other points as necessary. Very similar to "zone" or "expansion" on other cameras just with a different number of points (11 vs. 4/8). This works only with the center point on the 6D. This is different and often confused due to similar names with Single Shot Automatic (generally not desirable) which tends to acquire focus on the closest subject in the frame. These two systems behave totally different.

You are wrong on your assumption about this "uses center point to choose desired subject then uses outer points to stay on track" type scenario. I tried it and if you have something closer in the frame then the center it goes to that instead of the center. It picks the closest object out there.

Now on the 7D/1D/5D3 the automatic option in servo does indeed DO just that. You can acutally move a single AF point around and it will focus on that then try to track with ALL points to that target.

Enough of this silly stuff. the 6D AF is crippled and yes will work just fine is not meeting my needs. The minute something doesn't work as intended then I get what I need. Hence all the damn glass I've bought the past few months.


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speedync
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Mar 19, 2014 21:20 |  #284

What I've noticed, and also tested, is that the outer points on the 6D seem to be more sensitive and accurate in low light, when using one shot AF mode. As opposed to servo. I have yet to test to see if there is any difference on moving subjects in good light. It seems to hunt a little in servo, but lock straight on in one shot when the light level drops. Definitely not unusable though.




  
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Mar 19, 2014 21:24 |  #285

dinanm3atl wrote in post #16771577 (external link)
Isn't really that great for tracking? Interesting...


http://www.racemsm.com​/?p=3770 (external link)


AI Servo. Night time. Car going 100+ MPH... sharp photos all night long.

These are awesome shots. I love motorsports photos, but never tried shooting them (never go to any race).

But this reminds me, in other threads, I've seen similar, quite impressive photos from 6D users, who, similarly to you, were sharing their 6D racecar shots to prove what the 6D is capable of at race tracks.
I don't doubt that the 5DIII is better at it, but like I said I've seen similar from 6D.
I hope my post won't be interpreted offensive, that wasn't my intention. But on these threads I never know, I always feel like I'm walking on egg shells.


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Well crap I did it.... bye bye 6D... hello 5D3!
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