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FORUMS Post Processing, Marketing & Presenting Photos The Business of Photography 
Thread started 26 Mar 2014 (Wednesday) 21:32
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Where to draw the line

 
Hogloff
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Mar 27, 2014 07:51 |  #16
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Jarvis Creative Studios wrote in post #16789908 (external link)
Obviously this shows you can be hired if they were willing to hire an outside photographer. I would use this to your advantage next time they ask you for a "favor", reminding them of their recent hire and how you would like to also receive compensation for your time and talents.

Is he not already hired for this company. Don't they already pay him a salary for his time?




  
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huntersdad
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Mar 27, 2014 07:55 |  #17

Hogloff wrote in post #16789931 (external link)
I would look for compensation for using your own equipment for the shots. Other than thst, I don't see what your problem is. You are hired by this company and they are asking you to do some work for them. They are paying your salary are they not?

I see it as you just making yourself more valuable to the company and down the road this value will be recognized in your salary reviews. An employee with multi skills in the company is more valuable than one that just does one thing day in day out.

Playing the card that you weren't hired into the company to take photos will quickly put a label onto your back and your advancements in this company will be very limited. I think the time to talk about compensation would be during your salary review by reenforcing your multiple skills in the company and those skills being used throughout the year.

Actually, I was hired into finance and I can assure you that my growth within this company and my raises are based on my performance within that department. Whether I do this or not, will have no bearing on my reviews. They hired me because I was a CPA and could provide them a set of skills otherwise lacking within. Yes, they do pay me a salary but it's for a specific job function - accounting. Nothing about accounting screams photography.

FWIW, this isn't a particularly small shoot either.


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Mar 27, 2014 07:57 as a reply to  @ post 16789286 |  #18

The situation is that you (the OP) are working for them. So they are not your client. It sounds like they have changed your job description. So you need to sit down with them and work that out. If you're unhappy with the outcome, then do what anybody else does who is unhappy with their job. Look for another one.

One thing I wouldn't do in your current circumstances is post-processing on my own time.


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Jarvis ­ Creative ­ Studios
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Mar 27, 2014 08:00 |  #19

Hogloff wrote in post #16789937 (external link)
Is he not already hired for this company. Don't they already pay him a salary for his time?

I understand your points, and they are valid. But unless the OP is doing all the editing and post work at his desk during normal business hours he needs to be compensated appropriately for his overtime, just like employees are compensated gas for driving their personal cars to work events. Legally if an employee is working overtime he must receive appropriate compensation for that work.


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groundloop
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Mar 27, 2014 08:07 |  #20

Jarvis Creative Studios wrote in post #16789953 (external link)
..... Legally if an employee is working overtime he must receive appropriate compensation for that work.

If we're talking about the US, unfortunately that's only true in a limited number of situations. If you're considered an 'exempt' employee (typically 'white collar' jobs) you don't get overtime. If you're considered to be part of management you don't get overtime - and many many corporations have gotten very creative in who they classify as 'management' so as to circumvent labor law. If you're an independent contractor you don't get overtime or benefits - and again, some companies get very creative in who they call 'contractors'.




  
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ceegee
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Mar 27, 2014 08:16 |  #21

Is there a reason why they can't credit the photos to you? If the images are being used in pamphlets, donation materials and programs, you could perhaps ask for your name to appear in all print and web documents. I do some shoots for charities, and I always request (and get) this. It's become a decent source of additional paid work for me.

If you're doing the post-processing on your own time, it's reasonable to request some kind of compensation for that too.

Second question: Do you enjoy the shoots? If it were me, and if I enjoyed doing the work, I'd take a "meet me half-way" approach: reasonable but not radical, requesting compensation for time worked over and above my regular hours, plus photo credit.

If I didn't enjoy the shoots, I'd simply say no.


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sspellman
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Mar 27, 2014 08:23 |  #22

Its often easier to negotiate soft benefits from your current employer for another skill than to become a vendor as an existing employee. You should be able to negotiate more time off of work to "process the photos" or simply direct vacation time if the work happens outside of normal business time.

If you also had significant part time paid photography work with many more clients, you would see this situation as just 1 of many clients and not be so focused on analyzing it. You also should understand that as a CPA, people that are employees and attempt to become vendors at the same time is often a fraud concern and may be prohibited.


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Mar 27, 2014 08:37 as a reply to  @ sspellman's post |  #23

Personally, providing the shoot was on company time, I'd do it. And, I wouldn't expect any credit for the work. I really don't care what I'm asked to do on the company's dime, as long as it falls within the bounds of the law.

But, if I was using my personal equipment I would expect the company to pay for the usage of my equipment. The company I work for already expects to pay for utilizing employees' personal equipment (trucks, quads, snow mobiles, chainsaws, etc.) and has a clearly laid out rate sheet. While camera equipment is not on the list, I'd place it somewhere between chainsaws ($50/day) and quads ($125/day): probably $100.


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Hogloff
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Mar 27, 2014 08:52 |  #24
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huntersdad wrote in post #16789944 (external link)
Actually, I was hired into finance and I can assure you that my growth within this company and my raises are based on my performance within that department. Whether I do this or not, will have no bearing on my reviews. They hired me because I was a CPA and could provide them a set of skills otherwise lacking within. Yes, they do pay me a salary but it's for a specific job function - accounting. Nothing about accounting screams photography.

FWIW, this isn't a particularly small shoot either.

I would just take it as a good break from your normal day job. You are already being paid by the company...so what if it's not for your photography skills. I carry many hats in the company I work for. Just makes me more valuable to the company and over the years, I've been rewarded with a nice salary.

If you do post processing after hours at home, I would negotiate this as well as compensation for usage of your personal equipment.




  
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huntersdad
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Mar 27, 2014 09:03 |  #25

Hogloff wrote in post #16790044 (external link)
If you do post processing after hours at home, I would negotiate this as well as compensation for usage of your personal equipment.

This is the bulk of the issue in my head right now. There doesn't seem to be any interest in compensation for equipment or time OUTSIDE of work.


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Mar 27, 2014 09:28 as a reply to  @ sspellman's post |  #26

I was hired by my day job as a drafter/cnc programer. I have recently started doing photography work for them as well. I do not charge extra as I do all this work during my normal work hours. However at the get go we set up a system, they ask for photos, and I put together a list of equipment needed. Now I own 99% of what is needed for almost every shoot, but I provide a print out of my cart at say lensrentals that has all equipment in it. This is what the company pays me for the shoot. So its like the company paying to rent gear for each shoot, but they are renting my gear.

I shoot everything during my normal hours and when I have a days worth of post work to do I take a work from home day and do the editing. If the edited images are needed right away I take the next full day as a work from home day even if editing only takes an hour or two.

This is our agreement, and it works for me. My work has talked about getting LR and PS along with a basic kit for me to use at work, and if that day comes I will be happy to use what they have already purchased. At this point in time I am happy to be getting a paycheck and will do what ever it takes to make sure I have a strong foot hold in the company I work for.




  
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groundloop
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Mar 27, 2014 09:31 |  #27

huntersdad wrote in post #16790067 (external link)
.... There doesn't seem to be any interest in compensation for equipment or time OUTSIDE of work.



Have you had a frank discussion with your employer about this? I'm guessing they don't have a clue how much work is involved in processing images, they probably think you click a photo, load it on your computer, and that's it.

Employers (not all, but many) will take advantage of us as much as they possibly can. I even had one who told us all we had to work extra hours to get caught up, no raises that year, tighten our belts, etc. etc. etc. ..... and then showed up a couple of weeks later with a brand new BMW.




  
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Mar 27, 2014 09:43 |  #28

Until you have a simple conversation with your employer, you are likely getting worked up over what could happen. I speak from experience, as I was at one point in the same boat as you.

I work for a very large company (1B+ annual revenue) they have entire advertising and marketing department. We use multiple ad agencies and they are always hiring different photographers for projects.

Occasionally I would be asked to shoot an event, because that event had no budget. I helped out when I could, and people liked my work. Photos would be used in internal communications and a couple times in externals. My hope was to build some good will to get other paid work from the company. Well that really didn't happen, they just kept asking for me to work for free. Now I did do the work on Company time, I got my salary, but I was using my own gear.

Finally one day they asked me to do a shoot, and I decided to explain the situation to them. I let them know I am happy to help represent our Company in the best light possible by providing them with great photos at these events, and my boss has been supportive of giving me the time to do so, but the time needed to do this work outside of work hours does affect my time with my family, and I am now doing photography as a business, as such, I really need to start charging.

Low and behold, the answer was, "I understand, we don't have a lot of budget, but let me see what I can do." sure enough they were able to offer me compensation for my work, and they have paid me for a few additional shoot since. I don't get many shoot with them, because they have specific photographers they use. That said, when they do need work from me, I do get paid.

The point is, just ask. and like anything else in business be respectful, and let them know what is bothering you about it and see what they say. If they tell you to suck it up and it is your job, then get them to provide you with the necessary gear. (maybe your camera is in the shop for repairs) *wink*.

Hope this helps


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ceegee
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Mar 27, 2014 09:55 |  #29

huntersdad wrote in post #16790067 (external link)
This is the bulk of the issue in my head right now. There doesn't seem to be any interest in compensation for equipment or time OUTSIDE of work.

Explain to them that you've processed the images for previous shoots in your own time, at home, but since this particular shoot is a bit bigger in scope and will require more time, you'll be doing the processing at work, on their time. On the other hand, if they could see their way to providing some kind of compensation, you'd be happy to do it at home, on your time. Make sure they understand the amount of time involved (an estimate in hours).

Address one issue at once. If you can get them to acknowledge the value of your time, then you can start on the equipment afterwards. At least, that's what I'd do in your shoes. It's always easier to make a series of small gains than to get everything at once.


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Mar 27, 2014 10:05 |  #30

huntersdad wrote in post #16789863 (external link)
I already have the equipment and all the "little" things, so picking those up on company dime really isn't a discussion point. Neither is renting gear.

So you already have a back-up body?
And who pays for repairs if a shutter hangs up, or a camera gets knocked to the floor?


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Where to draw the line
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