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FORUMS Post Processing, Marketing & Presenting Photos The Business of Photography 
Thread started 26 Mar 2014 (Wednesday) 21:32
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Where to draw the line

 
archer1960
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Mar 28, 2014 10:38 |  #61

I'm with Hogloff here. If you're being paid for the time you are doing the photo work for them, then what's the problem, other than the wear on your personal equipment. If you're doing it on your own non-paid time, then you might ask to do the work during your regular work hours, so you're paid for your time. I have never played the "not in my job description" card; if they're paying me to do something during regular work hours, I don't mind doing something different from what I do the rest of the time.


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Mar 28, 2014 11:01 |  #62

I think that a lot of people are overlooking the added value the images carry. Those images help with marketing and bring in revenue, the OP may earn his salary handling finance but producing images is not in his job description. It's great to be a team player but this is way over the line. I would sit down with the powers that be, voice your concern and ask for reasonable compensation. I have worked with a couple Not for Profits and they do have budgets to work with. If they balk, politely decline and let the next in line have the pleasure.


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Hogloff
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Mar 28, 2014 11:15 |  #63
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tcphoto1 wrote in post #16792798 (external link)
I think that a lot of people are overlooking the added value the images carry. Those images help with marketing and bring in revenue, the OP may earn his salary handling finance but producing images is not in his job description. It's great to be a team player but this is way over the line. I would sit down with the powers that be, voice your concern and ask for reasonable compensation. I have worked with a couple Not for Profits and they do have budgets to work with. If they balk, politely decline and let the next in line have the pleasure.

Way over the line? How do you see this? Not in his job description is so 1960's philosophy. It is this mentality that stifles growth in companies as everyone just covers their ass and no one sticks their head above their cubicles and takes a risk. I see this mentality in many large bloated organizations that have departments galore with 5 levels of management in each department and a strict chain of communications up and down.

Round pegs must stay in the round holes and square pegs in the square holes.




  
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Littlejon ­ Dsgn
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Mar 28, 2014 11:23 as a reply to  @ Hogloff's post |  #64

Yup everyone saying if its not in your job description dont do it must work for very large companies. As I see it as long as I am on the clock I will do what ever is asked. Granted when I do photos with my own equipment I do get paid for the equipment rental from MY business but thats it, and only because if I did not have the gear we would be renting it. I do however also do the editing on company time.

If I were to tell anyone else in my company that "sorry cant do that its not in my description." They would either A) change my job description on the spot (at the end of everyone descrpiption it says they have the right to change it at any time), or B) hire someone else that would be happy to do my job plus the new one.

Sounds like the OP just needs to talk to the powers that be, and arrange to do the editing on company time.




  
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Fernando
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Mar 28, 2014 12:48 |  #65

cdifoto wrote in post #16790793 (external link)
I'm still "dead on" because requiring a person to work without pay is one of those illegal things they can't fire you for refusing to do. And so far, OP has not been paid and has worked off the clock. So far it has been voluntary, which is not illegal, but if he says he won't do it anymore, they can't force him to under threat of job loss. They also can't force him to use his own equipment on company time.

If he's compensated, then yeah. But we wouldn't be having this discussion because OP wouldn't have started the thread.

Unfortunately you're not. As a CPA the OP is likely (I don't know for sure but he can clear it up) an Exempt Salaried employee. Everything he does is covered by his employment (For now, there are law changes in the works). A job description is not a contract. I have a presentation Wednesday of next week. As it's quarter/month-end I will not have time to put the whole thing together while in the office. I have a couple choices. I can work on it at home after the wife and daughter are in bed (which I will) or I can stand firm that I will not prepare it outside of my work hours as it's not a part of my job description (instantly branded as unreasonable and would undo the last couple years of hard work). It's pretty standard for an employer to make a job unpalatable for an employee until they quit. As an employer I can change an employees hours; less than they can live on, more than they can handle, or ridiculous hours; change their job description, or even treat them like crap. All these things are wrong, none are illegal. When employees sue most companies pay just to make the thing go away. It's both easier and cheaper.

He can refuse to do anything he wants to refuse to do, but employment law is firmly on the employer's side.

Again, a CBA would be the only caveat.


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huntersdad
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Mar 28, 2014 12:59 |  #66

I am an exempt salaried employee - what CPA working for a company isn't? No doubt I have worked from home in the past to fulfill some job duties that had deadlines and that had to be completed. I'm sure it won't be the last time.

However, they were job duty related. I was hired to be that staff accountant - to review financials, deal with auditors and so on. If the copier jams, sure, I'll unjam it. I consider that an office duty that anyone should do. But taking pictures and editing on my time and my dime without some sort of compensation is not even remotely related to my job duties nor is what I would consider a general office function. And that is the problem.

For you guys saying do it ("It's an unwritten job duty"), here's what I want you to do: PM me your boss's email address. I'm sure he has a company car and I'm sure, being the team players you all are, I'm going to have him ask you to wash it tomorrow (your day off presumably) by hand (no car wash stuff - only the best for the company, right?). That's a skill that will make you more valuable to your organization and should make be rewarded when you raise time comes.

Same thing you're telling me, just now it's on your end. Guessing I'll have very few takers. And, if you send me your boss's email damn right I'll email him.


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Littlejon ­ Dsgn
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Mar 28, 2014 13:10 |  #67

huntersdad wrote in post #16793053 (external link)
I am an exempt salaried employee - what CPA working for a company isn't? No doubt I have worked from home in the past to fulfill some job duties that had deadlines and that had to be completed. I'm sure it won't be the last time.

However, they were job duty related. I was hired to be that staff accountant - to review financials, deal with auditors and so on. If the copier jams, sure, I'll unjam it. I consider that an office duty that anyone should do. But taking pictures and editing on my time and my dime without some sort of compensation is not even remotely related to my job duties nor is what I would consider a general office function. And that is the problem.

For you guys saying do it ("It's an unwritten job duty"), here's what I want you to do: PM me your boss's email address. I'm sure he has a company car and I'm sure, being the team players you all are, I'm going to have him ask you to wash it tomorrow (your day off presumably) by hand (no car wash stuff - only the best for the company, right?). That's a skill that will make you more valuable to your organization and should make be rewarded when you raise time comes.

Same thing you're telling me, just now it's on your end. Guessing I'll have very few takers. And, if you send me your boss's email damn right I'll email him.

At my last job ... also drafting but for a civil company, there were days I would wash the company trucks, by hand in the parking lot. But it was still on company time :)

There are a lot of us saying just do it, but I believe all of us (not gonna take the time to reread it all) are saying you should also be doing the editing on company time, not at home. I also suggested renting the company your gear for the shoot, or letting the company rent for any other rental house they wish. This will bring you in a bit of extra to cover using your own equipment without asking them to pay you for taking the pictures.

If you do not want to do any of it without being paid more, then that is also a conversation you need to have with your higher ups. Only you know the dynamics of your work place.




  
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tcphoto1
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Mar 28, 2014 13:59 |  #68

As a freelance photographer, I have to balance the creative and business aspects of creating images. The reality of the shoot with the usage described and a generous licensing would generate an estimate of a minimum of $2500. per shoot. Every freelancer has a drop dead number that they need to hit in order to keep a roof over their head and buy groceries. The OP must find the balance between keeping his job and feeling compensated for the images he creates. It sounds like his employer views it as a WFH situation and hasn't even expressed their appreciation in a job well done. If you help them in their fund raising efforts and the quality of their marketing materials, you should receive compensation for it.


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Hogloff
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Mar 28, 2014 14:07 |  #69
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huntersdad wrote in post #16793053 (external link)
I am an exempt salaried employee - what CPA working for a company isn't? No doubt I have worked from home in the past to fulfill some job duties that had deadlines and that had to be completed. I'm sure it won't be the last time.

However, they were job duty related. I was hired to be that staff accountant - to review financials, deal with auditors and so on. If the copier jams, sure, I'll unjam it. I consider that an office duty that anyone should do. But taking pictures and editing on my time and my dime without some sort of compensation is not even remotely related to my job duties nor is what I would consider a general office function. And that is the problem.

For you guys saying do it ("It's an unwritten job duty"), here's what I want you to do: PM me your boss's email address. I'm sure he has a company car and I'm sure, being the team players you all are, I'm going to have him ask you to wash it tomorrow (your day off presumably) by hand (no car wash stuff - only the best for the company, right?). That's a skill that will make you more valuable to your organization and should make be rewarded when you raise time comes.

Same thing you're telling me, just now it's on your end. Guessing I'll have very few takers. And, if you send me your boss's email damn right I'll email him.

Sure you can always come up with rediculous comebacks but your example us totally in left field compared to your situation.

I suggest rather than argue over the suggestions you have been given by strangers, why don't you sit down with management and discuss your concerns. I suggest going into this meeting with a very open mind, not one where you are thinking taking photos for the company is beneith your job description. You might actuly see management is very reasonable and will work out something that is agreeable to all involved. Afterall, they seem to like your photography.




  
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Fernando
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Mar 28, 2014 14:09 |  #70

huntersdad wrote in post #16793053 (external link)
I am an exempt salaried employee - what CPA working for a company isn't? No doubt I have worked from home in the past to fulfill some job duties that had deadlines and that had to be completed. I'm sure it won't be the last time.

However, they were job duty related. I was hired to be that staff accountant - to review financials, deal with auditors and so on. If the copier jams, sure, I'll unjam it. I consider that an office duty that anyone should do. But taking pictures and editing on my time and my dime without some sort of compensation is not even remotely related to my job duties nor is what I would consider a general office function. And that is the problem.

For you guys saying do it ("It's an unwritten job duty"), here's what I want you to do: PM me your boss's email address. I'm sure he has a company car and I'm sure, being the team players you all are, I'm going to have him ask you to wash it tomorrow (your day off presumably) by hand (no car wash stuff - only the best for the company, right?). That's a skill that will make you more valuable to your organization and should make be rewarded when you raise time comes.

Same thing you're telling me, just now it's on your end. Guessing I'll have very few takers. And, if you send me your boss's email damn right I'll email him.

I'm clearly not on the just do it bandwagon. When it happened to me I was an Regional Operations Manager for a mid sized Financial Institution. Shooting branch openings and other events was nowhere near my job description; even if they did include the "And other duties to be assigned.." line in responsibilities. I did it a couple times for the experience, and once because it was the only way I was getting into an event, but when it became a larger expectation I told them to pound sand. I was already working in the 70 hour/wk range and enough was enough.


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nathancarter
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Mar 28, 2014 14:14 |  #71

I'm in a similar situation, though it's not for a non-profit. I work for a retailer, in a regional office with a half-billion sales budget per year. My official duties are financial analysis - crunching numbers and staring at spreadsheets. But they know I do a lot of paid photography on my own time.

I work for free some, and I work for a cut rate sometimes, and I work for my full rate sometimes. Some examples:
- If it's photographing a company event, I'll likely do it for free. It's fun, and there's no pressure, and honestly it helps me socialize at those sorts of social events.
- I've done headshots for free during company hours - bringing my own gear and setting up, and shooting 70+ employees in a day. They let me have a day "off" to process and edit. It probably would have cost the company a grand or two to hire an outside professional - but they wouldn't have done it; they would have just had an admin use a point-n-shoot with people standing against a tan wall, and that would have been "good enough."
- I've done store photos on my own time (golden hour is not during the work day) at newly built stores, interior and exterior and 360-degree panos. I charge my normal hourly rate ($100-150/hr plus travel), but I don't charge them additional licensing fees, which in this context is a really good deal for their (practically unlimited) use.
- Based on this relationship, they've hired my wife's videography company at full rates for several projects in the past, including one $5000+ project that's currently ongoing.
- And, I've been hired by other employees (including the big-spender execs) for personal photo work - family and senior photos in the past, and a wedding that's coming up.


So, in short: Don't let them abuse you and do everything for free. If you're doing work on your own time, work that materially benefits the company, things that they would otherwise have to hire an outside photographer to do, then you should definitely charge accordingly. But there are also instances where you can do photo work for free just as a value-added benefit, and to develop the relationship that leads to the paid work.

You're going to have to ask for it, though.

Hogloff wrote in post #16792439 (external link)
Really, taking photos rather than sitting in your cube pouring over numbers is being abused.

You're not quite accurate in your description here: he's taking photos on company time and editing them on what SHOULD be personal time, IN ADDITION TO sitting in the cube poring over numbers. And, all those spreadsheets and TPS reports still have to be out by their deadline, whether he's additionally taking photos or not. So maybe he'll have to stay an extra hour here and there to get the "real" work done, since he spent some of the work day taking photos.


P.S. I have also washed the company truck (external link) for free on my own time - in exchange for letting me drive it around on their gas card for a couple weekends. And, I have taken out the trash on a number of occasions on company time.


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huntersdad
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Mar 28, 2014 14:35 |  #72

nathancarter wrote in post #16793224 (external link)
TPS reports

I get this, if no one else does.


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Mar 28, 2014 14:42 |  #73

huntersdad wrote in post #16793265 (external link)
I get this, if no one else does.

Office Space...?


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huntersdad
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Mar 28, 2014 15:40 |  #74

Yes


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MattPharmD
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Mar 31, 2014 14:59 |  #75

As a exempt salaried employee, the rub is when you already have more responsibilities than can be done in a typical work day and then you are asked to do something on top of that. If his workload was adjusted to compensate for the additional duties then that is one thing, but no company ever actually does that. You always have to do the additional thing on top of everything else you are expected to do. And when something is late because of this new work, they only say that they only evaluate you based on your job description and that was an additional project.

I would say that you were sorry but you no longer have time to complete your usual duties and this unrelated project at the same time. You can also work your butt off until you no longer can sleep and get everything done on time. Most companies push additional work until the employee pushes back or fails.


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Where to draw the line
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