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FORUMS Post Processing, Marketing & Presenting Photos The Business of Photography 
Thread started 26 Mar 2014 (Wednesday) 21:32
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Where to draw the line

 
Fernando
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Mar 31, 2014 16:55 |  #76

nathancarter wrote in post #16793224 (external link)
- I've done store photos on my own time (golden hour is not during the work day) at newly built stores, interior and exterior and 360-degree panos. I charge my normal hourly rate ($100-150/hr plus travel), but I don't charge them additional licensing fees, which in this context is a really good deal for their (practically unlimited) use.

So, in short: Don't let them abuse you and do everything for free. If you're doing work on your own time, work that materially benefits the company, things that they would otherwise have to hire an outside photographer to do, then you should definitely charge accordingly.

You're going to have to ask for it, though.

This one struck home in my situation. I was taking some photos of my new branch for kicks. It was perfect light with the sun going down and a gorgeous sky. One of those things where I was on my way home, had my camera and noticed it when I drove by. I got a couple I really liked.

Fast forward a couple months, my photo with my edits is on the front page of our primary monthly marketing piece.

As this was after I had let the marketing group know that I would no longer be doing free work for them I had a pretty serious conversation with the VP of Marketing. She said that she thought that since I had shown her the photo and mentioned that I loved how my branch looked that it would be ok to use it. I told her to show me the signed usage license or a check. I got a check.


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dave63
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Mar 31, 2014 18:12 |  #77

Fernando wrote in post #16799914 (external link)
She said that she thought that since I had shown her the photo and mentioned that I loved how my branch looked that it would be ok to use it.

"I thought that since you looked me in the eye in the break room, that it'd be okay to push you up against the wall and run my hand up your skirt while kissing you."

Funny, double-standard logic.



  
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OhLook
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Mar 31, 2014 19:07 |  #78

Fernando wrote in post #16799914 (external link)
I was taking some photos of my new branch for kicks. . . .

Fast forward a couple months, my photo with my edits is on the front page of our primary monthly marketing piece.

As this was after I had let the marketing group know that I would no longer be doing free work for them I had a pretty serious conversation with the VP of Marketing. She said that she thought that since I had shown her the photo . . .

Showing her the photo doesn't give her physical possession of it. How did Marketing get your file?


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the ­ flying ­ moose
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Mar 31, 2014 20:20 |  #79

I had a job where I got taken advantage of like that. Got hired as a salaried employee which was fine until 2 people quit. Instead of replacing them, the work got dumped on me. The final straw was in a span of 14 days, I worked almost 230 hours. In the end I was spending no more than 90 minutes a day doing the job I was hired to do.




  
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Northwoods ­ Bill
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Mar 31, 2014 22:39 |  #80

cdifoto wrote in post #16789509 (external link)
Um. He doesn't have to quit nor can they legally fire him since the photography is extra. He isn't refusing to do is actual job.

Two things. First if you worked for me and refused to do a reasonable task while on the job you would be disciplined. In another post you mention job description. Job description is a simple thing: "Your job description includes anything deemed to be reasonable or necessary in completing the task you have been assigned" and yes it says that in the handbook that everyone one of my new employees receives.

As to not being able to fire him, what an incredibly over-reaching statement! I did not look at where the original OP is located but different states have different laws. For example, New Hampshire is what is called at "at will" state meaning that either the employer or employee is free to terminate employment at any time with or without reason.

Now to the OP: Provided your employer is not putting you in danger or asking you to photograph something that goes against your morals then count your blessings to be able to enjoy your hobby while being paid. If you are incurring any actual expenses as a result then you should certainly address that with your employer. Further I would suggest that you sit down with your boss and explain the pride you take in these photos and explain to him / her that a photo credit would be a nice gesture. Aside from that be glad to have a paying job and do everything in your power as an employee to better the position of the organization. If you don't feel you can give 100% then by all means begin sending your resume out.


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Northwoods ­ Bill
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Mar 31, 2014 22:41 |  #81

archer1960 wrote in post #16792742 (external link)
I'm with Hogloff here. If you're being paid for the time you are doing the photo work for them, then what's the problem, other than the wear on your personal equipment. If you're doing it on your own non-paid time, then you might ask to do the work during your regular work hours, so you're paid for your time. I have never played the "not in my job description" card; if they're paying me to do something during regular work hours, I don't mind doing something different from what I do the rest of the time.


Thank You


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Northwoods ­ Bill
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Mar 31, 2014 22:58 |  #82

huntersdad wrote in post #16789944 (external link)
Actually, I was hired into finance and I can assure you that my growth within this company and my raises are based on my performance within that department. Whether I do this or not, will have no bearing on my reviews. They hired me because I was a CPA and could provide them a set of skills otherwise lacking within. Yes, they do pay me a salary but it's for a specific job function - accounting. Nothing about accounting screams photography.

FWIW, this isn't a particularly small shoot either.

Not even sure what to say here. This whole job description thing is such a load of crap. You earn a check and have a job ONLY if the organization is successful so it is YOUR JOB to do whatever it takes to insure that success. Honestly if the toilets needed to be cleaned and you were on the clock, guess what? I will say it again in a team environment your job is whatever it takes to further the organization. Period, end of story. One would hope that your employer sees the benefits of having you work in the dept you were hired for but bottom line your job description is whatever your boss or supervisor asks of you in that instant.

I will add that I have built my business from myself and 1 other in 2005 to myself and thirteen others in 2014. We have extremely low turn over. The guy that started with me in 2005 still works on the floor. I do my best to take good care of my employees and to show them they are appreciated as often as possible. I can tell you right now that my entire team from purchasing to project management to production has a clear understanding of my views on job descriptions.

Have you figured out yet that I feel strongly about this? ;)

And yes, I have cleaned the toilets more times than I care to count.


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MattPharmD
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Mar 31, 2014 23:36 |  #83

Just want to comment that in some states, a job description is legally binding, and "whatever else we find for you to do" clauses can get you into major trouble should this be the basis for discipline or termination.

Northwoods - you stated that you run a business of 14. Business culture in such a small business (our family's hardware store employees as many) is not the same as in a business or 140 or 1400. The larger the business, the more job descriptions and performance evaluations matter. Very rarely do large businesses allow for performance evaluations on tasks outside a job description (for good or bad).

Imagine my surprise when a good 90min of every one of my days was considered wasted on my evaluation because it was outside (part of someone else's) my job description. Even though this was absolutely necessary for the business to run (not just do well). This in a corporation of more like 140,000 employees.

As we do not know exactly where the OP works, I think it is unreasonable to assume that his job's culture is the same as yours.


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Northwoods ­ Bill
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Apr 01, 2014 05:52 as a reply to  @ MattPharmD's post |  #84

While I will concede that culture is significantly different in large corporations (my wife is a telecommuter for one such organization) I stand behind my assertion that an employees job is still "whatever it takes". In fact over the years she has learned that job description is a phrase best left out of our personal conversations :)

I worked three or four years for Siemens when I was straight out of high school, a multi billion dollar global company. I was hired to pick and pack orders. I did many different jobs as needed throughout the facility. I enjoyed the break and my supervisor appreciated someone who was willing to help out. I left when they voted in a union because I have a very strong dislike of union culture (but that is for a different thread).

My father worked 10+ years for Parker Hose and Hydraulics (another global corporation) right before retirement. He ran a carousel in one of their distribution centers, picking and packing orders. It got to the point that whenever a carousel broke down (his or anyone else's) they came and got him because it was quicker and cheaper than calling in a mechanic. He even had brought a number of his own tools and a tool box into the building. Nowhere is his job description was he a mechanic (I just asked him) but he did what it took to get the machines running and the orders out the door. Did he expect extra for it? No. He came from the old school and appreciated having a job to go to every day. He also understood that if he wanted to keep that job it was important to do his best to make sure that he was a team player and doing what he could to advance the facility.

In both his case and mine I would venture to guess that nobody outside of that building's management had a clue what was being done but local management recognized and supported it because they also understood that the health of the company was vital if anyone wanted to remain employed.

Unfortunately in my opinion way to many people (thankfully not all) are caught up in "what is in it for me" these days. Whether it is the employee who simply wants to come in collect his check and go home or the kid just out of school that thinks the world somehow owes him a living, it is rampant in our society these days and it is poison.

Sorry but at the end of the day your job is Whatever It Takes.


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memoriesoftomorrow
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Apr 01, 2014 06:00 |  #85

Northwoods Bill wrote in post #16801042 (external link)
Sorry but at the end of the day your job is Whatever It Takes.

Not in my book. It is whatever I was hired to do at a rate consummate to that skillset You want a much greater, more experienced, more qualified employee... you pay the going rate for those skills.


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Fernando
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Apr 01, 2014 06:55 |  #86

OhLook wrote in post #16800178 (external link)
Showing her the photo doesn't give her physical possession of it. How did Marketing get your file?

I emailed it to her mentioning how great the new building looked as it was nearing completion.


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Fernando
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Apr 01, 2014 06:57 |  #87

memoriesoftomorrow wrote in post #16801055 (external link)
Not in my book. It is whatever I was hired to do at a rate consummate to that skillset You want a much greater, more experienced, more qualified employee... you pay the going rate for those skills.

Good thing you're self employed...


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cdifoto
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Apr 01, 2014 07:36 |  #88

Northwoods Bill wrote in post #16800648 (external link)
Not even sure what to say here. This whole job description thing is such a load of crap. You earn a check and have a job ONLY if the organization is successful so it is YOUR JOB to do whatever it takes to insure that success. Honestly if the toilets needed to be cleaned and you were on the clock, guess what? I will say it again in a team environment your job is whatever it takes to further the organization. Period, end of story. One would hope that your employer sees the benefits of having you work in the dept you were hired for but bottom line your job description is whatever your boss or supervisor asks of you in that instant.

I will add that I have built my business from myself and 1 other in 2005 to myself and thirteen others in 2014. We have extremely low turn over. The guy that started with me in 2005 still works on the floor. I do my best to take good care of my employees and to show them they are appreciated as often as possible. I can tell you right now that my entire team from purchasing to project management to production has a clear understanding of my views on job descriptions.

Have you figured out yet that I feel strongly about this? ;)

And yes, I have cleaned the toilets more times than I care to count.

Yes I clean my own toilets and wash my own car too. When I second shoot (rarely), I hold things (like reflectors) when I have time and fetch things when I'm already fetching for myself or have time even though it's technically something a low wage employee can do.

HOWEVER, I would not be a maid as a matter of course, nor would I hold reflectors as a matter of course.

I don't care what kind of person you think that makes me, but if they hired me as a plumber they wouldn't get a photographer anymore than hiring me as a photographer would get them a plumber. I might be able to fix a leaky sink in a pinch but it won't happen regularly. And I definitely wouldn't be doing any of it off the clock as OP has been doing with his editing.

My father works for a guy like you who expects him to just do whatever whenever. But two things happen:

1. He CAN tell his boss that he'll have to get someone else if it's not something he can or even feels like doing.
2. He still gets **** on if he does it. Either the pay sucks for this non-traditional task or he breaks some of his own equipment or what-have you. Something goes awry EVERY TIME.


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Northwoods ­ Bill
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Apr 01, 2014 07:53 |  #89

A guy like me? Someone who has busted his a** to build a business and expects nothing less than the same from his employees? I rely on this business for my living just as much as any of my employees. If we don't ALL do out best to succeed we will surely ALL fail together.

It is unfortunate that your father is apparently not appreciated for being willing to help out, it says something about his employer. Something I would hope my employees could not say about me.

My employees can not tell me to get someone else just because they don't feel like doing something. If they don't feel capable of doing it or doing it safely then that is a different matter.

Sounds like you would not want to work for me.


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huntersdad
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Apr 01, 2014 08:42 |  #90

While I understand your mentality Bill, I disagree with it. I do believe that I we, as employees, should do what it takes to make the organization succeed. In this case, what I am being asked to do won't make or break the company. It will just make the brochures/presentation​s look better. My issue is not what I being asked to do (take the pictures), it is the part where it impedes my personal time (editing from home) with no additional compensation or other consideration.

We're not broke, we could hire a professional to come do this. However, they are not hiring anyone since they have someone with that knowledge internally and are ASKING him to do it - for free and a portion on his time. I have a small issue with this, as would almost any employee.


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Where to draw the line
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