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Thread started 24 Apr 2014 (Thursday) 11:06
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Canon news Camera sales fall 22%

 
rick_reno
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Apr 24, 2014 11:06 |  #1

TOKYO, April 24 (Reuters) - Canon Inc inched up its 2014 operating profit target on Thursday due to strong sales of office copiers and printers in the first quarter, and said a reshuffle of its camera line-up had also helped boost margins.

Canon said office equipment sales rose by 9.7 percent in the first quarter, helping lift operating profits by 51 percent to a higher-than-expected 82.6 billion yen ($806.76 million).

Camera sales, however, fell by 22 percent year-on-year in the quarter, as the world’s biggest camera maker struggled with the prevalence of high-quality smartphone cameras and a saturation in the high-end, single-lens-reflex camera market.

Chief Financial Officer Toshizo Tanaka told an earnings briefing that sales of pricier compact cameras had actually increased after Canon adjusted its camera production and line-up in the first quarter to meet customers’ demand for more sophisticated products.

But he said a recovery would take time.

“Determining whether we can achieve the growth we are hoping for will take some time,” Tanaka said. “Things are getting better in China and Europe, but it will take a while to see whether that will continue.”




  
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Shadowblade
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Apr 24, 2014 11:17 |  #2

'Saturation in the high-end SLR market'

I read that as 'no new products that would make people actually want to upgrade'.

If you release something that people want to upgrade to, then the market's not saturated.




  
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1Tanker
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Apr 24, 2014 12:02 |  #3

Shadowblade wrote in post #16858171 (external link)
'Saturation in the high-end SLR market'

I read that as 'no new products that would make people actually want to upgrade'.

If you release something that people want to upgrade to, then the market's not saturated.

+1

Looks like the sad faces of Canonites' are going to stay.. for the foreseeable future.


Kel
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jrbdmb
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Apr 24, 2014 13:04 |  #4

And in Nikon's most recent quarterly report, their sales for interchangeable lens cameras dropped 10% from the same time last year, and sales of P&S cameras dropped 32%.

But they have the sensors and cameras everybody wants! What's their excuse?


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Shadowblade
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Apr 24, 2014 13:08 |  #5

jrbdmb wrote in post #16858429 (external link)
And in Nikon's most recent quarterly report, their sales for interchangeable lens cameras dropped 10% from the same time last year, and sales of P&S cameras dropped 32%.

But they have the cameras everybody wants!?! What's their excuse?

Their crop-sensor SLRs have also stagnated. The D7200 isn't so different from the D7100, which isn't so different from the D7000. Not too many reasons to upgrade from one to the other. There also wasn't a D800 or D4 release to push up the figures, like 2012. But they've stagnated at a significantly higher level of performance than Canon's bodies.




  
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Luckless
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Apr 27, 2014 13:27 |  #6

Of course it couldn't be that we've reached a point in technology where the products are 'good enough', and all the players in the market need some radical changes to really drive massive new sales... Assuming there is anything that can really convince the masses to dump their existing camera gear and buy a wholly new kit.

Face it, people can take some amazing photos with a T2i, and their photos aren't going to become substantially better if you plop a $200k digital medium format kit in their hands. They have a camera. That camera works for them. So why are they even thinking about upgrading when what they have now is working just fine for them? Sure, there are some gear heads who will find the money to upgrade to every new body that comes out, just like there are some car owners who will trade in last year's model to offset the cost of this year's. Most people I know however drive a car into the ground and then get a new one. They'll spend their money on other things in life, like food, shelter, clothing, 'stuff', trips, etc.


Canon EOS 7D | EF 28 f/1.8 | EF 85 f/1.8 | EF 70-200 f/4L | EF-S 17-55 | Sigma 150-500
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Shadowblade
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Apr 27, 2014 13:36 |  #7

Luckless wrote in post #16865055 (external link)
Of course it couldn't be that we've reached a point in technology where the products are 'good enough', and all the players in the market need some radical changes to really drive massive new sales... Assuming there is anything that can really convince the masses to dump their existing camera gear and buy a wholly new kit.

Face it, people can take some amazing photos with a T2i, and their photos aren't going to become substantially better if you plop a $200k digital medium format kit in their hands. They have a camera. That camera works for them. So why are they even thinking about upgrading when what they have now is working just fine for them? Sure, there are some gear heads who will find the money to upgrade to every new body that comes out, just like there are some car owners who will trade in last year's model to offset the cost of this year's. Most people I know however drive a car into the ground and then get a new one. They'll spend their money on other things in life, like food, shelter, clothing, 'stuff', trips, etc.

Better camera doesn't mean better pictures. Better camera means more pictures (being able to capture things you couldn't previously capture due to AF or dynamic range limitations) and being able to print the same photos at a much larger size with no loss of quality.




  
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Luckless
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Apr 27, 2014 14:07 |  #8

Shadowblade wrote in post #16865063 (external link)
Better camera doesn't mean better pictures. Better camera means more pictures (being able to capture things you couldn't previously capture due to AF or dynamic range limitations) and being able to print the same photos at a much larger size with no loss of quality.

And yet the vast majority of people don't print anything. And many who do generally print 4x5(6), maybe 8x10s.

Sure there is a growing segment where those printing are going large, but they're still dwarfed by the vast number of people with little to no interest in actual prints of any size.

For most, their camera works. Sure they acknowledge that there are better cameras out there that will "Do a better job" than their current gear, but they simply aren't worth the cost. And that cost not being worth it doesn't have anything to do with the features of the cameras, or lack there of, but in the actual base cost.

People plop down $800-1600 on camera gear, and thats it for them. Next year they'll spend that on a trip, or a new TV, or something else they don't already have. They have a camera. That camera works for them. They already know how to use it and are familiar with what it can and can't do. Why on earth would the vast majority of people who are already happy with their camera upgrade it while it is still working?

How many people upgrade their computer every eight to nine months? That is about the time period that something substantial be improved. Newer processor drops to a reasonable price, better graphics card, larger hard drives, cheaper ram, etc. And yet most people who push their rigs will upgrade every other year, and those who put far lower demands on their hardware won't bother upgrading for three, four, or more years assuming the thing still runs.


Canon EOS 7D | EF 28 f/1.8 | EF 85 f/1.8 | EF 70-200 f/4L | EF-S 17-55 | Sigma 150-500
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Shadowblade
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Apr 27, 2014 14:18 |  #9

Luckless wrote in post #16865116 (external link)
And yet the vast majority of people don't print anything. And many who do generally print 4x5(6), maybe 8x10s.

Sure there is a growing segment where those printing are going large, but they're still dwarfed by the vast number of people with little to no interest in actual prints of any size.

For most, their camera works. Sure they acknowledge that there are better cameras out there that will "Do a better job" than their current gear, but they simply aren't worth the cost. And that cost not being worth it doesn't have anything to do with the features of the cameras, or lack there of, but in the actual base cost.

People plop down $800-1600 on camera gear, and thats it for them. Next year they'll spend that on a trip, or a new TV, or something else they don't already have. They have a camera. That camera works for them. They already know how to use it and are familiar with what it can and can't do. Why on earth would the vast majority of people who are already happy with their camera upgrade it while it is still working?

How many people upgrade their computer every eight to nine months? That is about the time period that something substantial be improved. Newer processor drops to a reasonable price, better graphics card, larger hard drives, cheaper ram, etc. And yet most people who push their rigs will upgrade every other year, and those who put far lower demands on their hardware won't bother upgrading for three, four, or more years assuming the thing still runs.

I'm not disputing that. I'm merely arguing against the premise that 'their photos aren't going to become substantially better if you plop a $200k digital medium format kit in their hands' and the implication that better cameras aren't necessary.




  
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Luckless
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Apr 27, 2014 16:14 |  #10

Shadowblade wrote in post #16865146 (external link)
I'm not disputing that. I'm merely arguing against the premise that 'their photos aren't going to become substantially better if you plop a $200k digital medium format kit in their hands' and the implication that better cameras aren't necessary.

Would you care to expand on why they are necessary for them then?

I'm sure most people would like a better camera, but my argument is that for the vast majority 'better' simply isn't needed or worth spending more money on. If there is no need for them to upgrade, then they don't spend money on it. People not spending money on stuff they don't need means lower sales, regardless of how great or shiny the latest camera is.

If Canon were to release a 100 megapixel camera tomorrow with perfectly clear ISO from 10 to 52million, and 40 stops of DR... They probably wouldn't see much more than a few percent bump in sales over if they release a 1DxII or 5DIV with far more probable specs. It will still be an expensive bit of gear that most people can't justify the expense of.


Canon EOS 7D | EF 28 f/1.8 | EF 85 f/1.8 | EF 70-200 f/4L | EF-S 17-55 | Sigma 150-500
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pulsar123
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Apr 27, 2014 16:16 |  #11

In other words, we are seeing the signs of the DSLR market maturing? It had ~10 years of very rapid growth, with the first goal being achieving the quality of cheapest film P&S cameras, next - achieving and beating the quality (and functionality) of professional film cameras; so now what?

For me, the big coming change will be the DSLRs/EVILs (and even higher end P&S) market moving to FF en masse. Meaning we should see much cheaper FF cameras. I think this will happen, I see the signs, but of course this is just my crystal ball. In the film age, vast majority of cameras were FF (including very cheap P&S). I don't see why not the same happening with the digital cameras. Say, how about a FF P&S with a basic zoom lens for 200$? I think Sony is moving in that direction; Canikon will have to follow or perish.


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sandpiper
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Apr 27, 2014 17:14 |  #12

Shadowblade wrote in post #16865063 (external link)
Better camera doesn't mean better pictures. Better camera means more pictures (being able to capture things you couldn't previously capture due to AF or dynamic range limitations) and being able to print the same photos at a much larger size with no loss of quality.

I agree with this.

My old 5d (classic) had noticeable limits. Not least of which was the AF system, it also had a low maximum ISO by modern standards. However, I kept that as my main camera for 8 years until the mkIII came out. Having now got the 5D mkIII, I find that the AF just doesn't miss, the ISO goes high enough that I can shoot pretty much anything I like without running out of shutter speed or aperture, or having any significant noise issues.

Sure, the thing still has limits, but they are so high I am not bumping into them except on a very rare occasion. When they bring out a better camera it will have higher limits, but I won't be rushing out with a large wad of money to buy one, because my current camera does just about everything I want it to. Being able to do more is unnecessary.

I waited 8 years between buying the 5D and the 5DmkIII, despite having some frustrations with the originals poor AF etc. How long do you think it will be before I want to upgrade the mkIII, which I am not finding limiting in any way? If it is still going strong 15 years from now, I will still be using it and I doubt that I will be tempted to buy a new camera until it dies.

I think that is the point Luckless is making. The current cameras are good enough for most people to be able to achieve what they want in a shot virtually all the time. Gone are the days of frequently having to stop shooting because the daylight is fading and you can't keep up your shutter speed, and similar limitations with older models. Yes, a better camera would be nice when one comes along, but there just isn't the potential for them to deal with that many more shots, that you would miss now.

Yes, a large proportion of POTN members will probably always go for the latest model, but in the real world where the vast majority of DSLR users live, the current cameras are "good enough" to not be replaced until they shuffle off to that great studio in the sky.




  
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1Tanker
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Apr 27, 2014 17:33 as a reply to  @ sandpiper's post |  #13

I think people want a camera (dSLR especially), that will help distinguish their work from the norm..ie. P&s and camera phones. The latter two are getting much better, rapidly, and closing many gaps. That means, the dSLR needs something to make it worth having (i don't think the size/feel argument is enough for the masses).

Nobody wants to take a shot (soccer Mom's included), and the person beside you using a P&S or phone.. comparing shots with you and saying "hmm.. my shots are almost as good as your fancy camera...i love this phone!"). ;)

We all want justification for carrying around 10-20lbs.(and $thousands) of gear.


Kel
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lungdoc
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Apr 27, 2014 18:55 |  #14

For Canon some particular concerns include the already mentioned absence of major advances in sensor technology/quality; the large price increases of their new generation lenses; and the rising quality of competitors lenses (e.g. Sigma 'Art'). The abundance of new competitive formats and mounts from Micro 4/3 to Sony's to Fuji's also puts pressure on the DSLR business: even if people aren't convince to switch they may be less likely to continue to invest more in their existing systems.

Obviously a very tough market. Canon may regret not pushing Eos M or other small camera options more seriously. The days of a DSLR being the best choice in all situations are gone and Canon should worry more about making sure they have a solution for most needs; especially as people could use the same interface/software, and often accessories, flashes and lenses.

One thing I have noticed on buying a new large "smart" TV recently is how much the software experience starts to count as much as the hardware. If you can't stand the interface it matters just as much as the picture quality. This I think will apply to cameras - Canon I think does well in this area but should recognize it as a crucial aspect: smoothly getting the images from camera to phone to Facebook matters in today's world; probably a lot more than printing.


Mark
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5Dmaniac
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Apr 27, 2014 18:58 |  #15

The majority of people out there taking pictures with their cell phones don't care much about quality - they just want to document and post their daily lives incl. selfies to their friends on FB etc. We keep forgetting that we are in the minority. How many DSLRs do you see people carrying even in National Parks these days.

I cannot count how many people walk up to me and tell me what a huge camera I am carrying around - and it is only my 5DII. Hardly anyone is printing anything anymore - so they don't give a damn about Image Quality.

The big camera makers have their work cut out to get those "casual shooters" back into their camp.




  
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