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FORUMS Post Processing, Marketing & Presenting Photos The Business of Photography 
Thread started 23 Mar 2014 (Sunday) 06:23
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Arrgg..how to handle this...

 
dynamitetony
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May 06, 2014 03:27 |  #466

this thread has been an informative and entertaining read, got to love this forum


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porky101
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May 06, 2014 05:09 |  #467

Ahh. Shooting weddings, internet myth no.1

Before shooting a wedding you must find work as a 2nd shooter

Internet myth no.2

If you ever work free or cheap you can never increase your prices.

Both complete bullsh1t, and everyone knows it (including the posters above I would bet).

I can only imagine that they're propagated by old guys desperately clinging to their market position, but you only have to look for threads titled 'how did you start in the business' or 'how do I get 2nd shooter opportunities' or similar to blow a hole straight through them.

1. Photographers looking to employ 2nd shooters want people who are competent, preferably with a track record, who will definitely not become competition. They don't want to take on the guy down the road who wants training up to become their competition. You will find it either hard or impossible to gain experience as a 2nd shooter, and of the hundreds of wedding photographers who regularly contribute here, only a handful actually started this way.

2. Almost all of us shot our first weddings for free or very little. The really good salesmen could manage to sell high value weddings with no portfolio, the rest of us worked our way up the price scale. However, business skills still play a major part, your business may thrive as you put up your prices, or it will stall. That's market forces at work.

But for the OP, this is a reality check. He's been told many times that he lacks the self awareness required to improve and learn, hopefully he can sit down and think about how he can use his strengths (self confidence) to counter this and move on.

Originally Posted by Phil V View Post
Before shooting a wedding you must find work as a 2nd shooter
I wish someone told me that 150 weddings in and I've never seconded.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil V View Post
If you ever work free or cheap you can never increase your prices.
My first 4 weddings were free... I now average over $4k a wedding.

Thanks and thanks, good points all round.




  
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porky101
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May 06, 2014 05:20 |  #468

Another feeling I have, on why I never got this wedding, when I think about it, I wasent as "proffesional" as I could have been. I delivered the engagement photo's to them on a CD without getting payment in. I was being nice and I feel at this point that, that could have predujeced my "Professional image" perhaps....just wondering out loud:)




  
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dynamitetony
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May 06, 2014 05:42 |  #469

sounds like your learning a lot porky both photography and business ,

i wouldnt worry you win some you lose some


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Phil ­ V
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May 06, 2014 06:17 |  #470

porky101 wrote in post #16885348 (external link)
Another feeling I have, on why I never got this wedding, when I think about it, I wasent as "proffesional" as I could have been. I delivered the engagement photo's to them on a CD without getting payment in. I was being nice and I feel at this point that, that could have predujeced my "Professional image" perhaps....just wondering out loud:)

You might knock me for being 'negative' again, but maybe it was because your images weren't what they'd expect from a professional?

Have a read of the feedback you received, see your response to it, and now you're looking for other 'reasons'? :rolleyes:

I love your spirit and your self confidence, but at some point you have to listen to the advice you've had. I know you'll say you've listened hard, but when you write responses like the above, it seems you're filtering out any negative comments and only taking on board what reinforces your preconceptions.

You asked at the time (to justify the quality of your images) for us to show you work from similar events. The fact is that we generally don't do 'similar events' because they're not financially viable, only the poor and the very rich hire pro photographers for parties, because the poor will book a guy for $50 and the rich won't mind spending the $1000+ required to secure a decent pro. But we all shoot weddings, where you'll find images from what the Americans call 'cocktail hour' which makes up most of the day at a UK wedding. Just shooting documentary and a few informal groups followed by some killer couple shots.

Look through any wedding photographers website and you'll see what we'd have delivered. It's a fine balance between the invisible photojournalism, where we discreetly capture what's happening, and then taking full control of the situation to produce some great portraits. You fell between those stools by taking a little bit of control to produce images that were neither great posed shots or that genuinely documented the evening.

Despite my prior protestations, I think you really ought to offer to help out a wedding photographer, you might have to travel to do so, but the mindset is clearly a mystery to you. Forget 2nd shooting though, you'll not learn so much with a camera to your eye, offer to assist, you can sell the prospect due to your extensive knowledge of setting up lighting, helping with getting groups together etc. Just watch them work, see where all the energy is aimed. Try to watch them with a photographers eye.


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gonzogolf
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May 06, 2014 09:21 |  #471

Phil V wrote in post #16885167 (external link)
Ahh. Shooting weddings, internet myth no.1

Before shooting a wedding you must find work as a 2nd shooter

.


Generally I agree with you. But in the case of the OP who has shown very little in the way of interpersonal skills with clients and a tendency toward colossal drama I suggested that he work as a second shooter to see how someone who does it right works. If you look back to the trainwreck that started this thread just a few weeks back you might want to ask yourself do you think its time for him to jump into weddings?




  
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porky101
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May 06, 2014 09:45 |  #472

@Phil,

Cocktail hour?

here you'll find images from what the Americans call 'cocktail hour' which makes up most of the day at a UK wedding. Just shooting documentary and a few informal groups followed by some killer couple shots.

So your saying, that there is a specific hour during the wedding that you get most of your "killer" shots?

I need to decide what I am focusing on....I must admit I really enjoyed the model shoot I did....more so than the engagement party....I actually loved the model shoot I did.

Anyways I got nothing more to add, thanks for your input once again, and thank you for telling it to me in a nice tone as I requested earlier:)

Thanks guys!




  
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CanonVsNikon
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May 06, 2014 09:50 |  #473
bannedPermanent ban

Why dive so quickly into weddings, one of the most stressful situations for the photographer.

Senior/family portraits is more laid back and you get the opportunity to build up your portfolio without tearing your hair out. Plus you are in total control.




  
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Phil ­ V
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May 06, 2014 09:59 |  #474

gonzogolf wrote in post #16885727 (external link)
Generally I agree with you. But in the case of the OP who has shown very little in the way of interpersonal skills with clients and a tendency toward colossal drama I suggested that he work as a second shooter to see how someone who does it right works. If you look back to the trainwreck that started this thread just a few weeks back you might want to ask yourself do you think its time for him to jump into weddings?

:D
I know what you mean, which is why I've also suggested he spends some time assisting (it should be easier to get a gig and he'll learn more without a camera)


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Phil ­ V
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May 06, 2014 11:44 |  #475

porky101 wrote in post #16885774 (external link)
@Phil,

Cocktail hour?

So your saying, that there is a specific hour during the wedding that you get most of your "killer" shots?
...

'Cocktail hour' is where the guests mingle with drinks, where as a photojournalist we can capture the interactions between people, we get to see genuine emotion, which is great to tell the story of the day. What this requires is eyes in the back of your head and ears everywhere, so that we can home in on what's about to happen.

Whereas most of your 'party pictures' appear to have been taken by someone crashing around a party interrupting people to get a cheesy snap.

If you're going to the trouble of getting people's attention to get a photo, make sure you're lighting and posing it carefully (take control like with the model shoot).

Your question though: it really does underline the fact that you're miles away from understanding what wedding photography is all about,

porky101 wrote in post #16885774 (external link)
I need to decide what I am focusing on....I must admit I really enjoyed the model shoot I did....more so than the engagement party....I actually loved the model shoot I did.
...

and this says that perhaps you should be working in a more controlled environment rather than aiming for weddings.


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groundloop
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May 06, 2014 12:20 |  #476

porky101 wrote in post #16885774 (external link)
@Phil,

Cocktail hour?


If I'm not mistaken that's what we call the reception.




  
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Fernando
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May 06, 2014 12:34 |  #477

groundloop wrote in post #16886082 (external link)
If I'm not mistaken that's what we call the reception.

Perhaps.

The cocktail hour tends to be the time between the ceremony and the reception here in the states. The couple gets some down time and the guests can show up at their leisure. For ours we had an open bar and catered hors d'oeuvres. Our guests were enjoying themselves quite a bit by the time we showed up. We had one photographer with us taking some shots and her partner was at the cocktail hour.

The reception follows and that was the meal, additional beverages, and all the things you might expect at a wedding (dances, garters, cake, etc.).


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porky101
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May 06, 2014 12:45 |  #478

Cocktail hour' is where the guests mingle with drinks, where as a photojournalist we can capture the interactions between people, we get to see genuine emotion, which is great to tell the story of the day. What this requires is eyes in the back of your head and ears everywhere, so that we can home in on what's about to happen.

Whereas most of your 'party pictures' appear to have been taken by someone crashing around a party interrupting people to get a cheesy snap.

If you're going to the trouble of getting people's attention to get a photo, make sure you're lighting and posing it carefully (take control like with the model shoot).

Your question though: it really does underline the fact that you're miles away from understanding what wedding photography is all about,

Very usefull info, I know you are right about this, because I did notice this aswell....at the begining of the party it was boring...as the event went on things started "happening".

This is an extremily useful piece of information for me...thank you, its kind of like "golden hour" :)

Im delivering the photo's of the most recent shoot I did in cape town, tommorow. if I post them all here will you mind giving me feedback? or should I post on a brand new thread?




  
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Phil ­ V
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May 06, 2014 14:15 |  #479

porky101 wrote in post #16886126 (external link)
Very usefull info, I know you are right about this, because I did notice this aswell....at the begining of the party it was boring...as the event went on things started "happening".

This is an extremily useful piece of information for me...thank you, its kind of like "golden hour" :)

Im delivering the photo's of the most recent shoot I did in cape town, tommorow. if I post them all here will you mind giving me feedback? or should I post on a brand new thread?

Do what you like, it seems some people would like to see them in this thread to save going looking for them.


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Boone13
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May 06, 2014 15:19 |  #480

Phil V wrote in post #16886317 (external link)
Do what you like, it seems some people would like to see them in this thread to save going looking for them.

It'd be a sad day to see this thread end at this point. :-)


Some moments are too amazing to be ruined with words.

  
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