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FORUMS Canon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon EOS Digital Cameras 
Thread started 17 Jun 2014 (Tuesday) 03:27
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sRGB or AdobeRGB ?

 
sirquack
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Jun 17, 2014 15:22 |  #16

Myabe that is why in the US, they refer to it as "going Commando" My father always told me if you wear a kilt, no underwear was allowed. If you were wearing underwear you were then wearing a skirt and that is for the ladies.


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Davenn
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Jun 17, 2014 18:40 |  #17

hahaha

the most enjoyable hijack of any of my threads on any forum EVER!!

I'm 4th generation Scot, I was born in New Zealand ... Dunedin <-- "Edinburgh of the South"
moved to Australia 14 yrs ago
and I also make a lot of people laugh with my use of the word ... wee
a wee bit of cake, a wee time later, just a wee accident

hmmm that last one really does have a double meaning ;)

Thanks guys

Dave


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rrblint
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Jun 17, 2014 22:02 |  #18

Davenn wrote in post #16978066 (external link)
hahaha

the most enjoyable hijack of any of my threads on any forum EVER!!

I'm 4th generation Scot, I was born in New Zealand ... Dunedin <-- "Edinburgh of the South"
moved to Australia 14 yrs ago
and I also make a lot of people laugh with my use of the word ... wee
a wee bit of cake, a wee time later, just a wee accident

hmmm that last one really does have a double meaning ;)

Thanks guys

Dave

How about a wee dram of scotch?:cool:


Mark

  
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GregDunn
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Jun 17, 2014 22:17 |  #19

"What is worn under a Scotsman's kilt?"

"Nothing is worn - everything is in perfect working order."


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Davenn
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Jun 17, 2014 23:02 |  #20

rrblint wrote in post #16978456 (external link)
How about a wee dram of scotch?:cool:

aye laddie

GregDunn wrote:
"What is worn under a Scotsman's kilt?"

"Nothing is worn - everything is in perfect working order."

that's the one ;)


D


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Wilt
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Jun 18, 2014 00:56 |  #21

CRCchemist wrote in post #16976477 (external link)
One important thing to note, is that you can convert an image in the AdobeRGB color space to sRGB without losing any color information, but if you try to convert sRGB to AdobeRGB, you will lose color information in the process. So for that reason, I put my color space in AdobeRGB if I am shooting my camera in JPG mode and not RAW.

WRONG! Both sRGB and aRGB have 16.7 Million color VALUES, and they assign the values to a different collection of hues. For example, aRGB has more green hues, but at the expense of blue hues.
For conceptual understanding, let us assume both spaces have 17 hues of green/blue, allocated as...

  • sRGB = 10 blue, 7 green
  • aRGB = 7 blue, 10 green


  1. So you LOSE BLUES when you go from sRGB --> aRGB, and
  2. you LOSE GREENS when you go from aRGB --> sRGB !
  3. And you cannot create 3 more blues during aRGB --> sRGB, and
  4. you cannot create 3 more greens during sRGB --> aRGB !


It is absolutely false, therefore, in believing in 'lossless' conversion between any two 8-bit-per-color (R-G-B) color spaces!

You CAN go from a 16-bit-per-color space (like Melissa RGB or PhotoPro-RGB to either 8-bit-per-color space (sRGB/aRGB) without loss.

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EverydayGetaway
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Jun 18, 2014 02:19 |  #22

I use sRGB because my monitor has a preset color calibration for it (though I know that's less than ideal) and because I know most people's monitors display sRGB and not aRGB... my monitor can show aRGB, but to my eyes there's very little difference, so why complicate things?


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Paulstw
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Jun 18, 2014 02:36 |  #23

sirquack wrote in post #16977693 (external link)
Myabe that is why in the US, they refer to it as "going Commando" My father always told me if you wear a kilt, no underwear was allowed. If you were wearing underwear you were then wearing a skirt and that is for the ladies.

I kilt the last guy that called it a skirt.....:rolleyes:

I was up the hills for a wee while last night getting some landscape shots. 4 miles I hiked up the campsies where I live, and the view was superb. I think there's more appreciation for Scotland by the folk who don't live here. It's a shame because it's a beautiful country when the weather is right. It's just a pity it's full of folk who don't see it.




  
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tonylong
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Jun 18, 2014 03:21 |  #24

OK, you guys, let's help out the OP here,the in-camera settings apply only if you are preparing to print (according to our manual) and shooting jpegs, and, only with jpeg, not Raw, with Raw the Color Space is only determined by the Raw converter/Raw processor!!


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BigAl007
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Jun 18, 2014 04:20 |  #25

The simple answer is if you have to ask you should stick to sRGB as your colour space. sRGB is the defacto standard for the web, most of which is not colour managed, and simply assumes sRGB. Even some of the colour managed browsers don't do too well with spaces other than sRGB. MS Office apps aren't much better so again another reason to stick to sRGB. When it comes to printing using an outside lab, 99% of them are setup to only use sRGB as that is what the majority of the customers are using. The other 1% will offer their own printer profiles that you can choose to use, but will still work OK with sRGB. This is really only useful if you are using a fully colour managed (including hardware profiling for you screen) workflow. Personally in my workflow this is the only time I will use a colour space other than sRGB on an output file. If you are printing on a home printer directly from a properly colour managed application then the conversion to the printer profile will be handled by the applications print system.

As Wilt (and others) have shown there is no situation where you can convert from one 8 bit colour space to another without losing information somewhere in the process, so if shooting JPEG images in camera there is no real benefit from shooting in anything other than sRGB, unless you are simply going to print the image to a wide gamut printer and nothing else.

If you are shooting RAW then your colour space choices are going to be determined by your workflow, and the combination of applications you will be using. In this situation there are differences between the way Adobe Lightroom and Adobe Camera Raw handle the processing of RAW files. I am a user of LR (V4.4) and PS CS5 and am going to explain my colour space choices based on that workflow.

The important thing to remember with LR is that internally it works with a colour space called Melissa. This is effectivly a 16 bit per colour channel colourspace and you cannot use something different in LR. So that fixes the colour space you will be working with in LR. For RAW files this is not an issue as they do not yet have a colour space. Melissa is a very wide colour space(wider than aRGB), and being 16 bit has a high enough resolution that it can match that of sRGB without problems. Mostly I am able to do all of my image processing only using LR. There are though some things LR cannot do, this is when I need to use PS. I really like LR for the way it generates and manages all of my final output options, so any work that is done in PS is taken back to LR for generating final output. I also use .PSD as my file type not .TIFF although that is not important in this discussion. I have LR edit in PS using a 16 bit file using the ProPhotoRGB colourspace. This is the closest regular colour space to LR's Melissa, the hues are all the same but the tone curve is slightly different. This means that I am working in PS with the minimum of variation in colour space, working in both directions. I will often do further work on the .PSD file in LR after I have finished in PS. So far so good, I have done all my editing in the closest matching colour space/bit depth.

Now I have to produce a finished image, either as an electronic file or a print. For all files destined for final viewing on screen the files will be exported as sRGB JPEG files. As this is the first conversion from a wide gamut 16 bit format this can be achived with no loss of colour resolution of the in gamut colours in the 8 bit file. Of course I have to deal with any out of gamut colours, but my output medium cannot deal with them anyway.

There is one exception to the above, image files that will be sent to the print lab that I use for printing. They offer a pro service that makes no changes to the image data, and provide their own .icc profiles for various printing machines and papers. Using these specific printer colour spaces offeres the most accuracy when using a fully colour managed workflow, as I am using. So for the lab I export LR Q80 JPEG files using the printer colour space. Again this is a first conversion from a wide gamut 16 bit space, so loses no in gamut colour resolution.

The ease with which LR can export output files means that I export an image for a particular purpouse, say uploading to the web, or attaching to an email, use the file for that single use and then delete it. That ensures that all of the file paramaters, such as actual pixel resolution or JPEG compression/quality setting are always exactly tailored to the specific use.

Finally if I print to my home printer it is direct from LR and LR's print module handles the conversion from the internal colour space to the printer space directly. This does mean that you have to be able to turn off colour management in the printer driver.

I hope all of the above makes sense. If not then just remember the short answer:

If you have to ask, then you should be using sRGB.

Alan


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hollis_f
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Jun 18, 2014 07:26 |  #26

Wilt wrote in post #16978699 (external link)
You CAN go from a 16-bit-per-color space (like Melissa RGB or PhotoPro-RGB to either 8-bit-per-color space (sRGB/aRGB) without loss.

Would this be a good reason to stick with the default colour space of LightRoom, rather than (as some have recommended here) switching it to aRGB?


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Wilt
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Jun 18, 2014 07:50 |  #27

hollis_f wrote in post #16978987 (external link)
Would this be a good reason to stick with the default colour space of LightRoom, rather than (as some have recommended here) switching it to aRGB?

When you Import RAW, the data internally is ALWAYS in Melissa RGB (16-bit). It is only when you pass data to an external editor (and it says 'Edit in Photoshop') that any color space is finally assigned...but you are no longer working with RAW data at that point. And LR is very careful to warn about the loss of data when working in aRGB!

IMAGE: http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i63/wiltonw/POTN%202013%20Post%20Mar1/LRcolorspace_zps56f7a7f8.jpg

Process flow chart...

IMAGE: http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i63/wiltonw/POTN%202013%20Post%20Mar1/Processflow_zps37610d65.jpg

In the 'Shoot RAW' sequence (at the top) the in-camera processing creates the embedded JPG data which is used by the camera for LCD display of the preview image only, or used by DPP to create its own initial RAW previews -- but discarded by other RAW conversion programs, all of which make their own initial previews!

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Jun 18, 2014 09:25 |  #28

Wilt I remembered this diagram from a previous thread, and was planning to add my version, covering my workflow to my post as an edit, as I posted from my phone. I'll add it as another post now instead.

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In general the main difference between my diagram and Wilts (apart from his much better graphics drawing skills) is what happens to images edited in PS. In my workflow all of the images edited in PS are saved as 16 bit .PSD files using ProPhotoRGB colour space (which minimises colour space conversions) and these files are imported back to LR (Automatically) next to the original RAW file.

I then do the final image preparation in LR, stuff like soft proofing to output colour spaces, cropping for format and the like (LR's virtual copies, and "Proof Copies" which are also VC's are very useful as that way you only need one .CR2 and one .PSD where you edited in PS). There is one major edit that I will do to a .PSD file in LR and that is Monochrome conversion. Sometimes I even need to create an RGB file first to account for colour shifts that need to be made before the channel mixing of the mono conversion. I prefer the LR mono conversion as you get 8 colour channels in LR's mix compared to only 6 in PS's channel mixer tool.

I then export from LR, generating the fully tailored output file for each specific use. Once used files are deleted.

Alan

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hollis_f
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Jun 18, 2014 12:53 |  #29

Thanks Wilt and Alan, backed up what I thought was correct. So, using aRGB for anything at all, except for printing with an aRGB-aware printer, is not a good idea?


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Jun 18, 2014 13:08 |  #30

hollis_f wrote in post #16979567 (external link)
Thanks Wilt and Alan, backed up what I thought was correct. So, using aRGB for anything at all, except for printing with an aRGB-aware printer, is not a good idea?

Yup! If you send aRGB to most commercial outfits, they first CONVERT the file (and you already heard from us about the hazards of converting any 8-bit JPG!) before printing it.


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sRGB or AdobeRGB ?
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