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FORUMS Canon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon EF and EF-S Lenses 
Thread started 07 Nov 2013 (Thursday) 09:38
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Tamron developing 150-600mm VC USD lens

 
dbdors
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Jun 25, 2014 23:54 |  #4111

pknight wrote in post #16992837 (external link)
So you're the guy who got the lens from Wolfe's! They are about an hour from me, but they never seem to have what I want in stock so I went to B&H years ago. They used to be good for photo chemicals back in the day (showing my age), but after researching gear and deciding what I wanted, they wouldn't have it. It never occurred to me to look for the Tamron there.

At the time I think they had 4 forsale, but they were all called for. One person backed out at the last minute. Good timing on my part.


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Jun 26, 2014 07:31 |  #4112

LV Moose wrote in post #16994682 (external link)
Nice review, although they indicate it's at it's sharpest at 150. Other reviews report the sharpest range to be between 300-400.

Probably sample variation, and IME the sharpness also varies a bit with focus distance. I get generally sharper shots for targets up to 50ft away than I do long-distance shots. Though I am well aware that atmospherics and other factors come into play with long-distance shots, which make it a lot more difficult to get accurate comparisons.


Gripped 7D, gripped, full-spectrum modfied T1i (500D), SX50HS, A2E film body, Tamzooka (150-600), Tamron 90mm/2.8 VC (ver 2), Tamron 18-270 VC, Canon FD 100 f/4.0 macro, Canon 24-105 f/4L,Canon EF 200 f/2.8LII, Canon 85 f/1.8, Tamron Adaptall 2 90mmf/2.5 Macro, Tokina 11-16, Canon EX-430 flash, Vivitar DF-383 flash, Astro-Tech AT6RC and Celestron NexStar 102 GT telescopes, various other semi-crappy manual lenses and stuff.

  
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repete7
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Jun 26, 2014 09:20 |  #4113

They're saying it's better than the Canon 100-400L. (Buy L glass they said, you'll never regret it they said.) Which makes me happy for all of you who are going to buy the Tamron.


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Canon 6D2|Canon Eos-m|Canon ef-m 22|Samyang 14mm f/2.8|Canon 40 stm|Canon 50 f/1.8 stm|Canon FD 50mm macro|Canon Macro 100L|Canon 16-35 f/4L IS USM |Canon 24-105L IS USM II|Canon 70-300 IS II USM|Canon 100-400L|

  
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archer1960
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Jun 26, 2014 11:10 |  #4114

repete7 wrote in post #16995544 (external link)
They're saying it's better than the Canon 100-400L. (Buy L glass they said, you'll never regret it they said.) Which makes me happy for all of you who are going to buy the Tamron.

Pretty much all the reviews have said it's at least just as good as the 100-400. But just because there's something better now, several years after you bought your L glass, doesn't mean you would regret buying the L. It's still probably physically sturdier than the Tamzooka, even if the Tamzooka's IQ is slightly better (which not everybody agrees is the case).


Gripped 7D, gripped, full-spectrum modfied T1i (500D), SX50HS, A2E film body, Tamzooka (150-600), Tamron 90mm/2.8 VC (ver 2), Tamron 18-270 VC, Canon FD 100 f/4.0 macro, Canon 24-105 f/4L,Canon EF 200 f/2.8LII, Canon 85 f/1.8, Tamron Adaptall 2 90mmf/2.5 Macro, Tokina 11-16, Canon EX-430 flash, Vivitar DF-383 flash, Astro-Tech AT6RC and Celestron NexStar 102 GT telescopes, various other semi-crappy manual lenses and stuff.

  
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RodS57
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Jun 27, 2014 11:12 as a reply to  @ archer1960's post |  #4115

With all the talk about AF issues when using AI servo mode I took some test pictures yesterday shortly after lunch. There is an osprey nest about 25 miles from where I live and the birds were very accommodating. For approximately 15 minutes they made low level passes over my head; perhaps as low as 150 feet. It was sort of like a large scale version of flys buzzing around your head. I took over 100 shots in bursts. Only one set of shots has images which are completely out of focus. The lens did focus hunt a couple of times but at times I had trouble getting the bird in the frame or keeping the birds in the frame. None of the pictures are great - mostly due to the noise levels but it does seem the tracking worked find. I could hear the focus motor working while shooting. The near/far issue didn't appear although I frequently changed targets but I didn't keep the shutter button half depressed while changing targets.

Camera: T3i
Focus: AI servo
Av mode @ 7.1
ISO: 400
Focal length: around 400mm
Shutter speed: 1/1200 - 1/2000

BIF is definitely an art. Congratulations to those that have mastered it.


>>> Pictures? What pictures? <<<<

  
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jaspa
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Jun 28, 2014 03:13 |  #4116

This may be an awful question, lol, and I certainly haven't used this method to zoom ( I just realized that it may be a possibility when I carelessly held it at a downward angle without the lock engaged ).. But how bad would it be to basically use it as a "push pull" zoom as opposed to twisting the zoom ring?


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r.morales
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Jun 28, 2014 10:06 |  #4117

Probably not a good idea . There are probably little gears inside and their bearings / shafts would wear funny .


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Kickflipkid687
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Jun 28, 2014 18:59 |  #4118

Well after going out with the lens again today, with the firmware update on the Canon mount, I will say it is performing better for sure. Faster to AF and less hunting/not getting stuck. I'm using the 60D body right now.


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DreDaze
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Jun 28, 2014 23:45 |  #4119

r.morales wrote in post #16999391 (external link)
Probably not a good idea . There are probably little gears inside and their bearings / shafts would wear funny .

why? those gears and shafts would be operating the same why they are when you zoom it...

i'm not sure about the tamron, but i know there are many sigma 50/150-500mm owners that use theirs as push pulls with non repercussions


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Andrushka
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Jun 29, 2014 01:36 |  #4120
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Kickflipkid687 wrote in post #17000150 (external link)
Well after going out with the lens again today, with the firmware update on the Canon mount, I will say it is performing better for sure. Faster to AF and less hunting/not getting stuck. I'm using the 60D body right now.

wow crazy - I have a 60D and never noticed issues, better AF performance than my 100-400 had... hmm... if it could get even better, that would be something!


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pwm2
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Jun 29, 2014 05:55 |  #4121

DreDaze wrote in post #17000498 (external link)
why? those gears and shafts would be operating the same why they are when you zoom it...

Not true.

Think about a lever, where a small force on one side can make you move a very heavy stone on the other side.

When you zoom, the linear rotation gets translated into a number of different movents forward and/or backwards inside the lens. And these movements need not be constant with relation to the turn angle of the zoom ring. Not only that - in some situations, the movement forward/backward inside the lens may even switch direction.

This means that when you zoom using the zoom ring, there is a well controlled force used to move the different groups and barrels inside the lens. When you instead push/pull the outside of the lens, you can have dead-lock situations where push or pull is stuck at a local maxima where it isn't clear if the rotation should be clockwise or counter-clockwise.

If you have a lens with zoom creep, it's common that that creep only relates to a limited part of the zoom range. The lens weight is the same all the time, but it may be only a limited part of the zoom range where the force is enough to create a rotation. And in some parts of the zoom range the lens can get into a deadlock.

You have probably seen some lenses where you zoom and the lens becomes longer and longer and then suddenly changes direction and for a little while becomes shorter. These same switching of direction can also happen with a number of internal groups. And any such switching of direction represent a point where the forces on the internal mechanism with escalate towards infinity if you try to push/pull instead of rotate.

So while the 100-400 is a push-pull lens, not all lenses can support push-pull just because there are parts of the zoom range where a element group either slows down greatly or even switches direction.

i'm not sure about the tamron, but i know there are many sigma 50/150-500mm owners that use theirs as push pulls with non repercussions

It's all a question of how the different parts inside the lens moves during the zoom operation. What works for one lens gives zero proof what works with a different lens - whatever manufacturer, model or focal length.

Another thing is that for some lenses both the zoom and focus operation results in changes to the total length, which means that push-pull will try to affect both mechanisms - both trying to change them and inducing wear.

Below is some examples of the cam slots inside lenses, and the changes in angle of these slots decides the "lever" effect, i.e. difference in force needed when affecting them through rotation or through push-pull, or if there are even parts of the zoom range where the push-pull will result in a deadlock:
http://www.adaptall-2.org …mLens/InsideZoo​mLens.html (external link)
http://www.freepatents​online.com/6522481.htm​l (external link)
http://www.google.com/​patents/US20090116122 (external link)


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Jun 29, 2014 10:07 |  #4122

pwm2 - I agree .
i don't have one yet - but several people have reported dust - pushing the lens out can suck in more air / dust what ever .
I don't know how many times I have seen people pick up their lens by the end instead of middle . Rapid extension -
In my bag , the lenses lay flat on their sides [even the primes and extenders]


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Jun 29, 2014 10:36 |  #4123

r.morales wrote in post #17001118 (external link)
pwm2 - I agree .
i don't have one yet - but several people have reported dust - pushing the lens out can suck in more air / dust what ever .
I don't know how many times I have seen people pick up their lens by the end instead of middle . Rapid extension -
In my bag , the lenses lay flat on their sides [even the primes and extenders]

While I agree that it is not a good idea to push/pull a zoom that doesn't have a push/pull mechanism, I do not believe that pushing/pulling will make any difference in the amount of air, or dust, that is drawn into a lens. The only lenses that do not draw in and expel air as they zoom are fixed-length zooms, where all of the work is done internally by moving lens elements. If the lens changes length, it must draw in enough air to fill the additional length when it gets longer, and expel enough air to accommodate the reduced volume when it gets shorter. Otherwise the lens would contain compressed air and/or a partial vacuum at some points in time. The speed at which the lens is zoomed would only affect how quickly this air is exchanged. I doubt if more dust gets in with a fast, but very short, change in volume, versus a slow, but more lengthy, intake of air from the same dusty environment.

Fortunately, a bit of dust in a lens makes little or no difference in IQ.


Digital EOS 90D Canon: EF 50mm f/1.8 II, EF 50mm f/2.5 Compact Macro, Life-Size Converter EF Tamron: SP 17-50mm f/2.8 DiII, 18-400mm f/3.5-6.3 DiII VC HLD, SP 150-600 f/5-6.3 Di VC USD G2, SP 70-200 f/2.8 Di VC USD, 10-24mm f/3.5-4.5 DiII VC HLD Sigma: 30mm f/1.4 DC Art Rokinon: 8mm f/3.5 AS IF UMC

  
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Jun 29, 2014 11:09 |  #4124

pwm2 wrote in post #17000807 (external link)
Not true.

Think about a lever, where a small force on one side can make you move a very heavy stone on the other side.

When you zoom, the linear rotation gets translated into a number of different movents forward and/or backwards inside the lens. And these movements need not be constant with relation to the turn angle of the zoom ring. Not only that - in some situations, the movement forward/backward inside the lens may even switch direction.

This means that when you zoom using the zoom ring, there is a well controlled force used to move the different groups and barrels inside the lens. When you instead push/pull the outside of the lens, you can have dead-lock situations where push or pull is stuck at a local maxima where it isn't clear if the rotation should be clockwise or counter-clockwise.

If you have a lens with zoom creep, it's common that that creep only relates to a limited part of the zoom range. The lens weight is the same all the time, but it may be only a limited part of the zoom range where the force is enough to create a rotation. And in some parts of the zoom range the lens can get into a deadlock.

You have probably seen some lenses where you zoom and the lens becomes longer and longer and then suddenly changes direction and for a little while becomes shorter. These same switching of direction can also happen with a number of internal groups. And any such switching of direction represent a point where the forces on the internal mechanism with escalate towards infinity if you try to push/pull instead of rotate.

So while the 100-400 is a push-pull lens, not all lenses can support push-pull just because there are parts of the zoom range where a element group either slows down greatly or even switches direction.


It's all a question of how the different parts inside the lens moves during the zoom operation. What works for one lens gives zero proof what works with a different lens - whatever manufacturer, model or focal length.

Another thing is that for some lenses both the zoom and focus operation results in changes to the total length, which means that push-pull will try to affect both mechanisms - both trying to change them and inducing wear.

Below is some examples of the cam slots inside lenses, and the changes in angle of these slots decides the "lever" effect, i.e. difference in force needed when affecting them through rotation or through push-pull, or if there are even parts of the zoom range where the push-pull will result in a deadlock:
http://www.adaptall-2.org …mLens/InsideZoo​mLens.html (external link)
http://www.freepatents​online.com/6522481.htm​l (external link)
http://www.google.com/​patents/US20090116122 (external link)

The zoom ring stills spins exactly like it does when you zoom out using it exclusively, so if you're not pulling and pushing with a ton of force I really don't see how the lens would notice anything different... These are the only kind of lenses I'd push pull because the front ends are massive

And yeah I did specify I have a different lens, but it's been used like that for five years, and in that time I've never seen anyone talk about it giving an actual problem...only people who have never done it suggesting there would be a problem


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pwm2
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Jun 29, 2014 11:52 |  #4125

DreDaze wrote in post #17001222 (external link)
The zoom ring stills spins exactly like it does when you zoom out using it exclusively, so if you're not pulling and pushing with a ton of force I really don't see how the lens would notice anything different... These are the only kind of lenses I'd push pull because the front ends are massive

And yeah I did specify I have a different lens, but it's been used like that for five years, and in that time I've never seen anyone talk about it giving an actual problem...only people who have never done it suggesting there would be a problem

If you read what I wrote, you would have realized that I said it differs between different lenses. If the cam slots have a constant angle, then there is a linear relationship between elongation of lens and rotation angle of the zoom ring. And it means that there are no part of the range where there may be an internal lockup with very big forces on the cam pins.

But that is not a general case - some lens models have slots that changes direction. Sometimes just to change the relationship between internal movement and ring rotation. But sometimes to even switch direction of the movement. A lens where the slot gives a reversal of the movement must absolutely not be attempted to be push-pull-zoomed around that stage because then none of the push-pull force will induce any rotation - all the force will represent a shear force on the cam pins.

It it's irrelevant what you have done with a specific lens model - that does not give any indication of the inner workings of a different lens model.

It's just a fact of life that not all lens models can handle push-pull operation. Some will lock up and/or break. Some will get extra wear. Some will work fine with either push-pull or twisting the zoom ring.


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Tamron developing 150-600mm VC USD lens
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