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FORUMS Post Processing, Marketing & Presenting Photos The Business of Photography 
Thread started 24 Jun 2014 (Tuesday) 16:43
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Shoot & Burn : Wedding Clients wants to keep SD cards after the event

 
memoriesoftomorrow
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Jul 02, 2014 01:14 |  #106

It is called knowing your target market and selling to them.


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cdifoto
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Jul 02, 2014 01:23 |  #107

No it's not. If it's called anything it's called knowing what you can get away with in your region. Believe me when I say your approach doesn't fly here. If I didn't have time for people I'd be expected to hire a representative who does.


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tkbslc
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Jul 02, 2014 01:28 |  #108

How desperate are you for work?

If you aren't going to go hungry, just pass. These sound like high maintenance clients.


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djphotosyd
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Jul 02, 2014 07:25 |  #109
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memoriesoftomorrow wrote in post #17006468 (external link)
Ringing up for a price without knowing what you're actually asking the price for (i.e. the product) isn't what I call making an effort.

"I want a price for wedding photography"
"Do you know what my photographs look like?"
"No, I just want a price for wedding photography"

Some potential clients are absolutely not worth having. I don't want to be hired by those people. Those people aren't the ones who rave and refer like crazy after the wedding. Those clients aren't the ones who hire you and just trust you to do what you do. Not every enquiry/potential client is worth having. There is nothing wrong at all to appealing to a particular part of the market and not to others.

Your responses to the several retorts over your redirect to the website statement are actually pretty funny and very ironic.
I know exactly what you are talking about. It's very much akin to what you are getting right here. People are questioning and disparaging your practices repeatedly but don't seem to be even reading your responses as to why you do it that way.

Clearly they don't get that just because something wouldn't work for them, I suspect far more because of their lack of sales and customer service skills, or they don't have enough clients to be able to select their clients, they think it's a bad thing for everyone.

I used to advertise in yellow pages ( yeah, we all make stupid mistakes). My ad specificaly at the time said weddings from $1500. The amount of people I would get that would ring me and say, " I found your number in the yellow pages, what can you do for $500?" was one reason I gave that away as a bad joke.

Some clients you are better off getting rid of as best as possible. Others may need a bit of Nuturing. If they are ringing a wedding photographer without having a clue waht they do in this day and age, then they are simply bottom end clients. Some people go after this market and others don't.

I used to have a bit of fun with the price shoppers. I'd ask about the wedding and what they were looking for and I'd be told they were just interested in price. I'd say is that what you are basing your decision on? They would say yes. I'd say oh, OK, well if I say I can cover your wedding for $100 if you book right now, are we on? Then they'd say "Well what do I get for $100?
Don't worry about that, are we on or not?
Well it depends on what you are offering.
Then price isn't the most important thing then is it?"

Clearly these people were a long way out of my market so I could afford to play with them as they were never going to be convertable to clients so nothing lost.

I have found a loooong time back that I don't want to roll over and lie on my back for every client or any of them in fact. I like to put them to a small amount of effort to pre qualify them and maintain the fact I am in charge, not them. It's a fine line but you need to maintain the relationship of them coming to you rather than you groveling to them to establish yourself as the professional.

The minute they thing you will grovel to their every need is the second you make a big rod for your own back and the trouble starts.

Some of us understand this, Others unfortunately don't or maybe are just desperate for every single client that comes along.
Each to their own.




  
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cdifoto
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Jul 02, 2014 07:32 |  #110

I don't know where you're from but it must not be a small town where word of mouth can kill you fast and poor people also happen to be related to or know the folks you do want as clients.

Disparaging people due to their financial situation is suicide here.


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djphotosyd
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Jul 02, 2014 08:02 |  #111
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memoriesoftomorrow wrote in post #17004011 (external link)
"OMG can you believe that photographer?"
"Yeah... I know"
"Nancy and Bill hired them and they got exactly what they wanted!"
"It is just outrageous that a photographer would do that!"
"Agreed. I'm going to tell all my friends that if they hire that photographer, they'll deliver exactly what they ask for"

As a side note... I wouldn't even be bothered about no having images for a portfolio... it is one wedding. Photographers should be generating enough portfolio quality material from everything they shoot that not having the images from one wedding is irrelevant.


This attitude just keeps on amazing me.
It's all about what the photographer wants not the client. I mean just because the client is the one paying for the work and it would never happen without them is no reason to put any regard in what they want right? Who do these people think they are paying for what they want?

I saw the same thing a few days back. My father wanted a big new shed for his farm. He knew what he wanted was not one of their pre fab models but being obviously easy to modify he thought well it's only a matter of paying the extra to get what I want.
Went into the place, told the guy he wanted this shed but changed like that and the guy went on about that this is how they do thier sheds and they don't like to change them as that means extra work and time and materials that puts the cost up and......
Whatever. It's colourbond panels on a steel frame. It's not rocket surgery and we aren't idiots. 20 years ago when the last shed went up the old fella ordered the materials from a steel supplier and built the thing himself and the one he wants now isn't as big. It's only age stopping him now.

Needless to say we walked out having made the only decison of these guys were not the ones for the Job. Father remembered hearing of a new place on the other side of town so we drove over and found them. Told the guy what he wanted who seemed to get excited and gave the old fella a list of options and suggestions he hadn't thought of. Once he had the old fella excited and had upsold him with a lot of boxes ticked, he gave him the " Bad news" which the old fella was more than happy with.
Guess whos building the new shed and who will be whineing that business is bad and no one has any money in the area and the sky is falling....

The mentailty some people on photo sites display when they talk business is hard to fathom. They seem to forget they too are consumers and I'll bet in 99.9% of cases, if they wanted to buy something and were dictated the terms they preach for others, they would be up in arms and telling the seller to jam their product where the sun don't shine and finding someone who would accomodate their needs.
They seem to forget what they would do as consumers and preach terms to their customers they would never accept themselves.

Imagine if Mr. Nicanon said they had to be sent a copy of every shot that was taken on their cameras so they could use it for their folio and to make sure it was OK for the shooter to say it was taken on their equipment or they had to edit it to the way they thought showed their product in the light they thought was fit before anyone could say it was shot on a camera made by them. After all, if a bad pic or badly edited photo got out, It might destroy their reputation and no one would buy another of their camera's!

Pretty much what shooters crap on endlessly about with " Their Work".
I wonder what the real truth is about how successful and profitable the businesses of these people that want to dictate terms to their clients really are?

From what I see here, the people that are making good money seem to be far more flexible and accomodating to their clients than the people who's success is not so easily verified.

Seems to be a lot of Irony in that to me......

It's a good Job that many photographers are not painters. They would be commissioned for a portrait and then refuse to hand it over on the grounds that the client may not put it in the " Right" frame, or they might hang it on a wall painted a colour the artist didn't approve of hang it at the wrong height or......
And of course they would need it for their folio. :rolleyes:




  
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mikeinctown
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Jul 02, 2014 08:03 |  #112

cdifoto wrote in post #17006422 (external link)
Yes when I call a business I find it wasteful of my time to be told to go to a website. I wouldn't have called if I wanted to look at a screen. It's almost like saying "shove off" with a smile. As you said, even the nice version is not really nice.

9 times out of 10, answering directly is just as fast as giving the link to the website.

Agreed. I've called businesses with websites and told to go there before hearing my specific questions. never did business with them again. It is one thing for a person to listen to some questions, answer a few and then politely tell a potential customer that they have far more information to review on their site and that if they have any other questions to please contact them again. I object to the ones who just direct you to their website because it seems they don't want to take the time to speak to someone.

As for the question regarding RAW files and if people actually know what they are, I have seen many people who think the raw file is something different than it actually is. They will hear someone mention a raw file and assume that it is the same type of thing they would get from their P&S or iPhone before they apply their special touches. They do not realize that it isn't even in a JPEG format. Before I purchased my first DSLR and came here I was not aware of what a RAW file actually was, and if I heard others mention or request it I would have done the same, assuming it meant pictures I could just post that weren't getting touched up.




  
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djphotosyd
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Jul 02, 2014 08:09 |  #113
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cdifoto wrote in post #17006880 (external link)
I don't know where you're from but it must not be a small town where word of mouth can kill you fast and poor people also happen to be related to or know the folks you do want as clients.

Then I would think that meeting peoples needs and putting that they want and are paying would get you a lot better WOM than dictating your terms and being inflexible. I thought that point was already well made in an example presented previously but obviously not well enough.

Disparaging people due to their financial situation is suicide here.

If you think I was commenting on peoples financial situation instead of understanding the point I was making as to the relationship between a flexible attitude and business success, then it's probably not worth trying to explain.
If you did get it, then you're simply trolling and trying to create an argument where there is none.




  
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cdifoto
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Jul 02, 2014 09:48 |  #114

djphotosyd wrote in post #17006950 (external link)
Then I would think that meeting peoples needs and putting that they want and are paying would get you a lot better WOM than dictating your terms and being inflexible. I thought that point was already well made in an example presented previously but obviously not well enough.

If you think I was commenting on peoples financial situation instead of understanding the point I was making as to the relationship between a flexible attitude and business success, then it's probably not worth trying to explain.
If you did get it, then you're simply trolling and trying to create an argument where there is none.

There's a big gap between flexibility and giving what you perceive as an unfinished product.

I'll be fine with losing someone for not delivering raws just as Peter seems fine with losing someone for not giving them his time before they're already begging him to shoot them.

It's my professional opinion that absolutely no good can come as a result of me delivering my rough raw files because of the way I work. I'm not afraid to say it to anyone. You don't hire me to press a button and walk away. I still care enough to see the images through to completion, and I'm not going to take any job just to make a buck just like you and Peter don't take any job just to make a buck. You said yourself, as has Peter, that there are people you don't mind losing. Guess what? People who demand the raw files are the ones I don't mind losing.


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memoriesoftomorrow
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Jul 02, 2014 10:09 |  #115

cdifoto wrote in post #17007136 (external link)
just as Peter seems fine with losing someone for not giving them his time before they're already begging him to shoot them.

WOW... you really like to over dramatise things in this thread... time and time again you've done it. "Begging him" erm no... making sure potential clients know what I have on offer for sale before they make a meeting or booking request... how is that begging exactly?

I use my time efficiently. Why should I put more time into work when I just don't need to? Why on earth would I spend an extra couple of hours a week working for no additional financial return.


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cdifoto
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Jul 02, 2014 10:17 |  #116

memoriesoftomorrow wrote in post #17007179 (external link)
WOW... you really like to over dramatise things in this thread... time and time again you've done it. "Begging him" erm no... making sure potential clients know what I have on offer for sale before they make a meeting or booking request... how is that begging exactly?

I use my time efficiently. Why should I put more time into work when I just don't need to? Why on earth would I spend an extra couple of hours a week working for no additional financial return.

Clearly you don't have to. That's wonderful. More power to you for being able to pull that off.

In the meantime, call centers the world over envy you.


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memoriesoftomorrow
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Jul 02, 2014 10:20 |  #117

cdifoto wrote in post #17007203 (external link)
Clearly you don't have to. That's wonderful. More power to you for being able to pull that off.

In the meantime, call centers the world over envy you.

Are you done trolling yet?


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cdifoto
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Jul 02, 2014 10:36 |  #118

I'm not even trolling. Call centers wouldn't exist if companies could all do wba you're doing.


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memoriesoftomorrow
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Jul 02, 2014 11:07 |  #119

cdifoto wrote in post #17007243 (external link)
I'm not even trolling. Call centers wouldn't exist if companies could all do wba you're doing.

What the hell have call centers got to do with how I choose to run my business with speculative low quality enquiries? Answer... nothing what so ever.

Like it or not what I do works fantastically for me. It doesn't hurt my WOM one bit. It considerably reduces my marketing spend as it increases my WOM due to the type of clients it attracts and their propensity to rave before and after I shoot their wedding. (Referral rates increase each and every year). Of course saving money on expenses increases the bottom line. It also means I spend less time working... I'd estimate it saves me between 1-2 working weeks per year... all simply by pre-qualifying as much as possible with the least effort possible.

You can disparage the approach all you want... but I'm going to stick to working less, for more money and having happy clients along the way. Which ironically goes hand in hand with the approach of being prepared to sell raw files... less work, effectively more money and happy clients. The holy trinity for a business.


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jt354
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Jul 02, 2014 11:36 |  #120

I must admit I have no idea what tangent this thread has wandered off on, but back to the original question:

Under normal circumstances, I personally would not give the client my RAW files for several reasons:

1) Doing so could jeopardize my portfolio. People do all kinds of silly things with photoshop (selective color, excessive radial blur, jacking the saturation on every photo, etc.). While I understand these edits remain possible with processed jpeg delivery, I'm not willing to entrust the entire editing process to the average client and have the results posted online under my name.

2) I need all the portfolio images I can get at this point, therefore I would not give away my only copy of the original files. Giving away originals also opens up plenty of potential copyright issues.

3) In general, I think the expectation that a photographer not perform post-processing signifies a lack of trust between the client and photographer. It seems to be a common (and usually unfounded) concern, often by the bride, that the photographer will post an "outtakes" or "bloopers" album of unflattering photos on public social media. Any self-respecting photographer would not do so, as it would jeopardize his reputation. Nevertheless, "control freak" couples might want to circumvent the remote possibility of this occurring by assuming control over the entire editing process and image distribution.


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Shoot & Burn : Wedding Clients wants to keep SD cards after the event
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