Approve the Cookies
This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies and our Privacy Policy.
OK
Index  •   • New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear  •   • Reviews
Guest
New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear  •   • Reviews
Register to forums    Log in

 
FORUMS Photography Talk by Genre General Photography Talk 
Thread started 09 Jul 2014 (Wednesday) 02:21
Search threadPrev/next
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)

Photography's Unbreakable Core

 
airfrogusmc
I'm a chimper. There I said it...
35,785 posts
Gallery: 138 photos
Best ofs: 6
Likes: 4519
Joined May 2007
Location: Oak Park, Illinois
     
Jul 16, 2014 14:59 |  #16

I Am,
you are right and that is a great piece. Sort of similar to what Meyerowitz is getting at in this trailer for a great documentary. If you haven't seen it, do...

Says poster not available. Just push the play button.
http://www.traileraddi​ct.com/everybody-street/trailer (external link)




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)
RbnDave
THREAD ­ STARTER
Goldmember
Avatar
1,077 posts
Joined Feb 2002
Location: Monterey, California
     
Jul 16, 2014 15:51 |  #17

mark48 wrote in post #17035249 (external link)
Thank you very much for sharing your site, Dave. I enjoyed reading every bit of it and have it bookmarked so I can go back time and again. Everything you wrote made absolute sense to me not to mention the great images!

-Mark

Thanks. Glad you liked my articles. You'll find a lot more stuff available when you poke around my blog.


California Photographer (external link) -- My Photo Blog (external link) -- Free Photography Lessons (external link) -- Twitter (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
RbnDave
THREAD ­ STARTER
Goldmember
Avatar
1,077 posts
Joined Feb 2002
Location: Monterey, California
     
Jul 16, 2014 15:57 |  #18

airfrogusmc wrote in post #17035283 (external link)
Dave a couple of things I took a bit of exception to. Many of Winogrand's images lived near the edges of the frame. Face moving out of the frame cut in half by the frame and what could be the other half of the same face coming into the frame on the other side. So don't fear the edge use it as Garry did.

I also think like Gibson in this quote and I believe this is what separates great images from those you quickly read and can move on from. Great images keep pulling you back because they are not fast reads. The more you look the more you see and the more fluent you become with the language the more you understand. I think to many play to the simple instead of the more complex and compelling.

Gibson's quote....
"A good photograph, like a good painting, speaks with a loud voice and demands time and attention if it is to be fully perceived. An art lover is perfectly willing to hang a painting on a wall for years on end, but ask him to study a single photograph for ten unbroken minutes and he’ll think it’s a waste of time. Staying power is difficult to build into a photograph. Mostly, it takes content. A good photograph can penetrate the subconscious – but only if it is allowed to speak for however much time it needs to get there." - Ralph Gibson

Also composition is and should be as Weston points out here part of a personal way of seeing.
"When subject matter is forced to fit into preconceived patterns, there can be no freshness of vision. Following rules of composition can only lead to a tedious repetition of pictorial cliches." - Edward Weston

"so called “composition” becomes a personal thing, to be developed along with technique, as a personal way of seeing." - Edward Weston

I'm not sure if you are disagreeing with me or if you didn't actually read the articles. My essay about the frame says "don't fear the edge of the frame." There's an entire paragraph or two saying you should experiment with clipping your subject on the frame's edge.

Also, I wrote an entire article about adding more details to your photos to hold the viewers attention. Yes, I agree that your photos shouldn't be "fast reads".

As for composition, that's not even covered in these essays. Composition is a book length subject and I just don't have the time.


California Photographer (external link) -- My Photo Blog (external link) -- Free Photography Lessons (external link) -- Twitter (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
airfrogusmc
I'm a chimper. There I said it...
35,785 posts
Gallery: 138 photos
Best ofs: 6
Likes: 4519
Joined May 2007
Location: Oak Park, Illinois
     
Jul 16, 2014 16:13 |  #19

Sorry Dave I agree with using the edges and disagreeing with the beginners approach was it?

A great photographer once told me the only thing you really need to know is either everything in the frame is helping your photograph and if those things aren't helping it then they are hurting it.

To many people try to follow rules when it comes to composition. Here are some more words from some of the greats about that subject.
"There are no rules for good photographs, there are only good photographs." - Ansel Adams

"Photography is not a sport. It has no rules. Everything must be dared and tried!" - Bill Brandt

"There are no rules and regulations for perfect composition. If there were we would be able to put all the information into a computer and would come out with a masterpiece. We know that's impossible. You have to compose by the seat of your pants." - Arnold Newman

"And in not learning the rules, I was free. I always say, you're either defined by the medium or you redefine the medium in terms of your needs." - Duane Michals

"...there are no external or abstract or preconceived rules of design that can apply to still photographs."-Garry Winogrand

Dave have you ever spent any time at the Weston Gallery in Carmel?




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
DocFrankenstein
Cream of the Crop
Avatar
12,324 posts
Likes: 7
Joined Apr 2004
Location: where the buffalo roam
     
Jul 16, 2014 20:36 |  #20

In Praise of Sharpness wrote:
When you look at art history, it’s the details that separate photography from the other art forms. Photography quickly and accurately records the details of reality. The best renascence painters could not imagine rendering the world as crisply as your cell phone camera. As we move into the uncharted future, I predict that details will remain at the core of photography. The way photos allow us to pause and reconsider details will not change.

When I look at art history, I see a very different picture.

And renascence has an alternative spelling, which is more common.


National Sarcasm Society. Like we need your support.

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
airfrogusmc
I'm a chimper. There I said it...
35,785 posts
Gallery: 138 photos
Best ofs: 6
Likes: 4519
Joined May 2007
Location: Oak Park, Illinois
     
Jul 16, 2014 20:55 |  #21

Some historians say that impressionism was a result of photography. The first photograph 1827 and photography was getting really popular by the mid to late 1800s. Impressionism started gaining momentum in the late 1860s You suddenly had a camera that could record accurately artists were now free to paint how they felt about things instead of trying to make accurate representations.




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
EOS-Mike
Goldmember
Avatar
1,022 posts
Gallery: 30 photos
Likes: 206
Joined Oct 2013
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
     
Jul 16, 2014 21:22 |  #22

Honesty. Photography's core is honesty.

That can be broken, of course, but honesty is a big part of photography.

Let me explain with a couple examples:

1. Almost anyone who speaks any European language knows the name Jesus Christ. Also, almost anyone who speaks a European knows the name Adolf Hitler. But which of these two historical figures can you think of and say, "I know what that dude looked like."?

The same goes for Barack Obama and George Washington.

You may think you know what George Washington looked like, but you will never, ever really know, because he was painted. The person doing the painting could have been the most skillful artist in the world, but he might also want to get hired again. Therefore, that mole with the hair growing out of it? Nah, we'll ignore that. He isn't very fit? Well, we can adjust that a bit. And perhaps we will choose which wrinkles make him distinguished and which do not.

Yes, the same argument can be made for photography (we can photoshop wrinkles and use the healing brush to remove a pimple), but the difference is that we know we CAN get a 100% honest photograph.

So we will never know what Julius Caesar looked like, or King Henry the 8th, or Moses.

But we will always know what Margaret Thatcher, Adolf Hitler, and David Lee Roth looked like.

That is photography's core.


Sony A7 III
All my Canon gear is on sale here.

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
DocFrankenstein
Cream of the Crop
Avatar
12,324 posts
Likes: 7
Joined Apr 2004
Location: where the buffalo roam
     
Jul 16, 2014 22:05 |  #23

EOS-Mike wrote in post #17036671 (external link)
Honesty. Photography's core is honesty.

But we will always know what Margaret Thatcher, Adolf Hitler, and David Lee Roth looked like.

That is photography's core.

Photography is not honest. It CAN be used to document things, but as a whole it lies, hides and distorts all the time.

Sometimes accidents take things very far. Sometimes critical moments transform... sometimes visual tricks are created intentionally.

How honest do you think Leibovitz is about portraying the crown (external link)?

There's a good chance jesus didn't exist as a person, but we have a very good idea of what Nefertiti looked like.

Documentation is boring. A cop pushes a button and a mugshot is made. That's not Photography, that's a side effect of having cameras as technology.


National Sarcasm Society. Like we need your support.

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Tom ­ Reichner
"I am a little creepy"
Avatar
12,584 posts
Gallery: 142 photos
Best ofs: 1
Likes: 3176
Joined Dec 2008
Location: Omak, in north-central Washington state, USA
     
Jul 17, 2014 10:35 |  #24

DocFrankenstein wrote in post #17036602 (external link)
When I look at art history, I see a very different picture.

And renascence has an alternative spelling, which is more common.

Doc,
I wish I could find the piece you quoted. I did not see any way to click on that post to see who wrote it. Anyway . . .

Like you, I do not agree with that quote. Details are not any more important to photography than they are to other forms of art.


"Your" and "you're" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"They're", "their", and "there" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"Fare" and "fair" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one. The proper expression is "moot point", NOT "mute point".

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
DocFrankenstein
Cream of the Crop
Avatar
12,324 posts
Likes: 7
Joined Apr 2004
Location: where the buffalo roam
     
Jul 17, 2014 11:24 |  #25

Tom Reichner wrote in post #17037498 (external link)
Doc,
I wish I could find the piece you quoted. I did not see any way to click on that post to see who wrote it. Anyway . . .

Like you, I do not agree with that quote. Details are not any more important to photography than they are to other forms of art.

Quote is from one of the essays
http://www.photos4u2c.​net/2013/08/06/big/ (external link)


National Sarcasm Society. Like we need your support.

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
sjones
Goldmember
Avatar
2,214 posts
Likes: 161
Joined Aug 2005
Location: Chicago
     
Jul 17, 2014 16:50 as a reply to  @ DocFrankenstein's post |  #26

What ever the core of photography is, it certainly has little to do with sharpness, blurriness, or anything in-between, at least on a comprehensive level.


Summer 2017 (external link)
Grateful I'm not blind to Eggleston's brilliance.
It's the Photographer (external link) | God Loves Photoshop (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
EOS-Mike
Goldmember
Avatar
1,022 posts
Gallery: 30 photos
Likes: 206
Joined Oct 2013
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
     
Jul 17, 2014 21:39 |  #27

DocFrankenstein wrote in post #17036734 (external link)
Photography is not honest. It CAN be used to document things, but as a whole it lies, hides and distorts all the time.


Documentation is boring. A cop pushes a button and a mugshot is made. That's not Photography, that's a side effect of having cameras as technology.



You didn't really make a valid argument against my position.

I understand what you're saying, however. Yes, photography can lie, but "all the time"?

No. You even mentioned a cop taking a mug shot as an example, but called it "not photography."

It is actually the writing of light (photos graphos).

My actual point is that photography CAN be honest. But I submit that it's impossible to recreate light accurately with a paintbrush or pencil.

The core of photography is the true capture of light, and nothing else comes close.


Sony A7 III
All my Canon gear is on sale here.

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
DocFrankenstein
Cream of the Crop
Avatar
12,324 posts
Likes: 7
Joined Apr 2004
Location: where the buffalo roam
     
Jul 17, 2014 23:27 |  #28

EOS-Mike wrote in post #17038612 (external link)
My actual point is that photography CAN be honest.

I don't know what your actual point is, I can only respond to the things you type in.

Let me quote you again:

EOS-Mike wrote in post #17036671 (external link)
Honesty. Photography's core is honesty.

That can be broken, of course, but honesty is a big part of photography.

That is photography's core.

If you post a thread with a title: "Politicians ARE honest", then get blasted, would you come back and say:

You didn't really make a valid argument against my position.

I understand what you're saying, however. Yes, politicians can lie, but...

My actual point is that politicians CAN be honest.

And yes. They can. Sometimes they are... etc. ;)


National Sarcasm Society. Like we need your support.

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
RbnDave
THREAD ­ STARTER
Goldmember
Avatar
1,077 posts
Joined Feb 2002
Location: Monterey, California
     
Jul 18, 2014 09:33 as a reply to  @ DocFrankenstein's post |  #29

EOS-Mike wins by default simply because he found a way to work David Lee Roth into his original post. Way to go my man! FYI: Eddie was seen at the mastering studio last week. Fingers crossed for another great album.

As for the rest of you nonbelievers... Do you really think details aren't an important aspect of photography? Haven't you ever taken a picture because you wanted to preserve a detailed memory? As a dad of two young kids, half of the pictures I'm taking these days are simply to preserve the details of a moment. With photography anyone can render a highly detailed scene in 1/250 of a second. That's one of photography's key ingredients. I'm not saying that photography is only about details, but details are one of the main building blocks.

And a word about honesty... Yes photography can be dishonest. Almost everyone knows that they can be fooled by photography. However, I believe most people subconsciously believe photos are honest/real at first glance. They don't see the trick until they turn their cognitive powers towards the photo. Isn't that why photography is used so often in advertising? People subconsciously believe photos are real. With all the photo-realistic, manipulated images we're subjected to each day, I think that at some point the general public is going to become immune to this subconscious belief that photos are real, but we aren't there yet. Here's a piece I wrote on this subject: http://www.photos4u2c.​net/2013/03/24/time-divorce/ (external link)


California Photographer (external link) -- My Photo Blog (external link) -- Free Photography Lessons (external link) -- Twitter (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
airfrogusmc
I'm a chimper. There I said it...
35,785 posts
Gallery: 138 photos
Best ofs: 6
Likes: 4519
Joined May 2007
Location: Oak Park, Illinois
     
Jul 18, 2014 09:35 |  #30

An interesting thought by John Szarkowski.
"What the photographer taking the picture and the historian viewing it must understand is that while the camera deals with recording factual things and events that form the subject of the photograph, it only produces a perceived reality that is remembered after the thing or event has passed. While people believe that photographs do not lie, this is an illusion caused by the mistaken belief that the subject and the picture of the subject is the same thing."- John Szarkowski

and
"Because we see reality in different ways, we must understand that we are looking at different truths rather than the truth and that, therefore, all photographs lie in one way or another. Today's technological advances in digital manipulation of images that the public sees regularly in photographs and films now only makes it easier to understand what has always been true."- John Szarkowski

A little something from Winogrand and gets to it about 1:40 or there about's in...
http://www.youtube.com​/watch?v=Tl4f-QFCUek (external link)

Actually it gets to the lie about 2:28 in....




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)

5,799 views & 0 likes for this thread
Photography's Unbreakable Core
FORUMS Photography Talk by Genre General Photography Talk 
AAA
x 1600
y 1600

Jump to forum...   •  Rules   •  Index   •  New posts   •  RTAT   •  'Best of'   •  Gallery   •  Gear   •  Reviews   •  Member list   •  Polls   •  Image rules   •  Search   •  Password reset

Not a member yet?
Register to forums
Registered members may log in to forums and access all the features: full search, image upload, follow forums, own gear list and ratings, likes, more forums, private messaging, thread follow, notifications, own gallery, all settings, view hosted photos, own reviews, see more and do more... and all is free. Don't be a stranger - register now and start posting!


COOKIES DISCLAIMER: This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies and to our privacy policy.
Privacy policy and cookie usage info.


POWERED BY AMASS forum software 2.1forum software
version 2.1 /
code and design
by Pekka Saarinen ©
for photography-on-the.net

Latest registered member is brewtonlie
785 guests, 290 members online
Simultaneous users record so far is 15144, that happened on Nov 22, 2018

Photography-on-the.net Digital Photography Forums is the website for photographers and all who love great photos, camera and post processing techniques, gear talk, discussion and sharing. Professionals, hobbyists, newbies and those who don't even own a camera -- all are welcome regardless of skill, favourite brand, gear, gender or age. Registering and usage is free.