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Thread started 17 Jul 2014 (Thursday) 20:35
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Why does POTN allow paypal violations ?

 
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John
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Jul 18, 2014 18:02 |  #46

Pekka, POTN should also facilitate the resolution of payment disputes between members, making sure everyone has insurance for their gear, and also make sure nobody speeds while driving. :cool:


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Jul 18, 2014 18:23 |  #47

John wrote in post #17040511 (external link)
Pekka, POTN should also facilitate the resolution of payment disputes between members, making sure everyone has insurance for their gear, and also make sure nobody speeds while driving. :cool:

We probably need a rule: "members who use PM to arrange a meeting where they eat unhealthy food and drink alcohol, not to mention watch episodes of "Walker, Texas Ranger", will be immediately banned".


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Scoobert
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Jul 18, 2014 18:41 |  #48

John wrote in post #17040511 (external link)
Pekka, POTN should also facilitate the resolution of payment disputes between members, making sure everyone has insurance for their gear, and also make sure nobody speeds while driving. :cool:

Yes and stealing movies is ok because they charge to much for them anyhow.




  
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Jul 18, 2014 18:46 |  #49

I wouldn't call it FRAUD, but it is skirting on being immoral.




  
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Jul 18, 2014 18:57 |  #50

Scoobert wrote in post #17040569 (external link)
Yes and stealing movies is ok because they charge to much for them anyhow.

No, it is not.


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Jul 18, 2014 21:57 |  #51

Scoobert wrote in post #17040348 (external link)
Its not about the buyer that is making you out to be a fraud and a lair. You deceived Paypal by cheating them out of the funds you agreed to pay when you set up the account.

If you take the money as a gift they get nothing for the services they provided you.

If you mark it up 3% you are again violating the terms you agreed to when you set up the account.

No different then stealing a movie or a song illegally. You want the service they provide but you feel you should get it free, so that is your justification for stealing it.

Almost like napster....they just said it's not our fault these people are stealing we are only allowing a place for people to advertise the songs they have.

The bolded statement is incorrect. I can set any price I want for anything I sell to cover my expenses, just like ANY other business out there. With the recent advent of the changes of the laws regarding increasing or passing credit card fees to consumers at stores has changed this, if you try to use the old rule of "you cannot charge others for the fee", that statement in the member agreement is no longer enforceable, if any such case would be taken to court.

Also, why are you so concerned about how I conduct business with other members? I guess I never understand why others feel like they should get their nose in between the sale and purchase between 2 members. It really quite frankly none of your business.

I hope that doesn't upset you, I don't mean it as being disrespectful, however it's true. You have no responsibility at all for watching over how any 2 people in the world conduct business, especially using a forum on the internet. The only caveat to this would be if you see something illegal, or harmful to any one individual. You certainly do have a responsibility in managing your own sales and purchases from others however, and if the other side of the transaction conducts themselves in a way you find immoral, then simply don't finish the transaction with them. If you don't like the rules or conduct of the ownership of a forum, then don't frequent the forum.

You may certainly disagree with me, and I respect that, but if so, I would love to know why then you feel differently, and the reasons you need to worry about the rules of this or any other board, and how any 2 members do a deal. Just remember it is a very slippery slope if you expect others to be responsible for you, instead of you being responsible for you. I know going into any transaction that if there is an issue, it is at minimum 50% my fault, 50% the other party's fault, and at most 0% the fault of anyone else, POTN or its membership.


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Jul 18, 2014 22:33 |  #52

TeamSpeed wrote in post #17040884 (external link)
The bolded statement is incorrect. I can set any price I want for anything I sell to cover my expenses, just like ANY other business out there. With the recent advent of the changes of the laws regarding increasing or passing credit card fees to consumers at stores has changed this, if you try to use the old rule of "you cannot charge others for the fee", that statement in the member agreement is no longer enforceable, if any such case would be taken to court.

Also, why are you so concerned about how I conduct business with other members? I guess I never understand why others feel like they should get their nose in between the sale and purchase between 2 members. It really quite frankly none of your business.

I hope that doesn't upset you, I don't mean it as being disrespectful, however it's true. You have no responsibility at all for watching over how any 2 people in the world conduct business, especially using a forum on the internet. The only caveat to this would be if you see something illegal, or harmful to any one individual. You certainly do have a responsibility in managing your own sales and purchases from others however, and if the other side of the transaction conducts themselves in a way you find immoral, then simply don't finish the transaction with them. If you don't like the rules or conduct of the ownership of a forum, then don't frequent the forum.

You may certainly disagree with me, and I respect that, but if so, I would love to know why then you feel differently, and the reasons you need to worry about the rules of this or any other board, and how any 2 members do a deal.

It doesn't say you can not charge a fee. you can charge what ever you want to cover your expenses. It simply states that you cant charge more simply for taking Paypal.

If you dont agree with that, why did you agree to the terms of use?

Just like it says GIFT is to not be used to sell items. And if you use paypal and use their services to collect and transfer money for you. You agree NOT to do that.

As to why I asked is pretty simple. I was curious as to why most all boards do not allow this and rightfully so. Yet some groups think its Ok to rip off a company for their services.
I simply wondered why.

If you don't want people to question why your are ripping off a company, don't rip off the company in public. It's harmful to the whole company not just one individual that makes ok?

If you don't like reading about people questioning why things are the way they are, don't frequent that post on the forum.




  
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Jul 18, 2014 22:52 |  #53

Scoobert wrote in post #17040930 (external link)
It doesn't say you can not charge a fee. you can charge what ever you want to cover your expenses. It simply states that you cant charge more simply for taking Paypal.

If you dont agree with that, why did you agree to the terms of use?

Just like it says GIFT is to not be used to sell items. And if you use paypal and use their services to collect and transfer money for you. You agree NOT to do that.

As to why I asked is pretty simple. I was curious as to why most all boards do not allow this and rightfully so. Yet some groups think its Ok to rip off a company for their services.
I simply wondered why.

If you don't want people to question why your are ripping off a company, don't rip off the company in public. It's harmful to the whole company not just one individual that makes ok?

If you don't like reading about people questioning why things are the way they are, don't frequent that post on the forum.

What other boards do is up to them, but it is not their responsibility to enforce the rules of each and every single terms of sale for all the different types of payment. It is not scalable, and all you will do is cause the ownership to simply close down the FREE commerce site of the board.

You have been given the answer by the mods and owner, and they are fair and right.

You haven't answered my question by the way, but instead tried to point fingers at me, or it reads that way. I pay nearly $1000 annually to Paypal, not to mention they hold nearly $2000-3000 at any given time of my money with no dividends or interest back to me. I just used myself as a rhetorical subject. Also PayPal is a big company and can deal with this very easily on their own. If they feel a customer is abusing the services, they will stop allowing the acceptance of personal payments by said member.

Let's get back to my question...

Why is it your responsibility to question what others do when they deal with each other? You opened up the subject, pointed out that you have an in at Paypal, then started to get into member behavior, and therefore opened yourself up to the inevitable questions that will arise. If you don't like difficult questions, then you probably shouldn't have started the topic. You seem passionate about this, so I expect it should be an easy answer.


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Jul 18, 2014 23:21 |  #54

TeamSpeed wrote in post #17040965 (external link)
What other boards do is up to them, but it is not their responsibility to enforce the rules of each and every single terms of sale for all the different types of payment. It is not scalable, and all you will do is cause the ownership to simply close down the FREE commerce site of the board.

BS, asking people to simply follow the rules of a TOS they agreed too is hardly something you would have to shut down a board to do. MANY MANY sites have trader sections with far more people then here and have no problem putting up a post to say these things will not be allowed. And you know what, people dont do it. It doesnt take a goon squad to enforce it. Just a post by a moderator.

TeamSpeed wrote in post #17040965 (external link)
You have been given the answer by the mods and owner, and they are fair and right.

In your opinion. I disagree
But its not like I set out to make them CHANGE ANYTHING. I just asked why its tolerated when pretty much everybody knows it wrong.
The admins feel by turning a blind eye to it constitutes not knowing. It doesn't, but its their board they can say and do what they want.
I am fine with that, just wondered the logic behind it. Which is why I asked.

TeamSpeed wrote in post #17040965 (external link)
You haven't answered my question by the way, but instead tried to point fingers at me. I pay nearly $5500 annually to Paypal, not to mention they hold nearly $2000-3000 at any given time of my money with no dividends or interest back to me. I just used myself as a rhetorical subject.

I pointed no fingers at you, I simply said "If you don't want people to question why your are ripping off a company, don't rip off the company in public" If that includes or excludes you or me so be it.

TeamSpeed wrote in post #17040965 (external link)
Let's get back to my question...

Why is it your responsibility to what others do when they deal with each other? You opened up the subject, pointed out that you have an in at Paypal, then started to get into member behavior, and therefore opened yourself up to the inevitable questions that will arise. If you don't like difficult questions, then you shouldn't have started the topic.

I answered your question

As to why I asked is pretty simple. I was curious as to why most all boards do not allow this and rightfully so. Yet some groups think its Ok to rip off a company for their services.
I simply wondered why.

You think its only wrong if its harmful to an individual. Again i disagree, I think if your ripping off a company its just as harmful. Which is why I asked.

Again I did not ask for anything to be changed. Just WHY




  
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Jul 19, 2014 04:29 |  #55

Scoobert wrote in post #17040930 (external link)
It doesn't say you can not charge a fee. you can charge what ever you want to cover your expenses. It simply states that you cant charge more simply for taking Paypal.

And that it outside the rights of Paypal to decide upon.

Just as you have probably bought a couple of softwares with shrinkwrapped licenses.

And next thing here is that the 3% fee is for a service. The ones using the Paypal gift isn't using that service. And it falls down to basically semantics if I make an agreement:
- I have a lens worth $300 I can give to you. But it's fun to share gifts. You have any gift you could give me for the commun fun?
- Mm, I have this $300 gift certificate I might give to you.

If you dont agree with that, why did you agree to the terms of use?

But then we see a large number of posts on this forum every day that doesn't match the agreements we did when we signed up with this forum. Strange.

By the way: When did you last spent two hours and read the agreements for using Acrobat Reader to view PDF files? You have read it, haven't you?

As to why I asked is pretty simple. I was curious as to why most all boards do not allow this and rightfully so. Yet some groups think its Ok to rip off a company for their services.

But I don't agree with "most all boards" do not allow this. And you haven't shown any statistics backing your view.

And I don't agree with "and rightfully so", since I don't think it's the task of the forum management. Maybe you should have to scan and send in a valid license for an image viewer, a raw converter, a photo edit software and at least one serial number for a digital camera before you are allowed to register with POTN? And of course prove that you have a valid Windows license. Running Linux? That must be seen as a way of cheating Microsoft of their money! Having a Mac? Given how much software is only available for M$, it's likely you still need a Windows license so still prove you have a valid Windows license.

I simply wondered why.

Not true. If you simply wondered why, you wouldn't continue to push - you would accept the responses you got. But you aren't happy with the responses you got which goes against your claim of just "wondering why".

If you don't want people to question why your are ripping off a company, don't rip off the company in public. It's harmful to the whole company not just one individual that makes ok?

So use the PM system and PM everyone you see trying to use Paypal gift. But don't try to force the forum management into changing policies.

If you don't like reading about people questioning why things are the way they are, don't frequent that post on the forum.

But isn't the problem rather that you don't like the responses you get?


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Jul 19, 2014 04:31 |  #56

Scoobert wrote in post #17041007 (external link)
Again I did not ask for anything to be changed. Just WHY

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:


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Jul 19, 2014 05:39 |  #57

Scoobert wrote in post #17041007 (external link)
Again I did not ask for anything to be changed. Just WHY

Because the TOS between Paypal and their users already fully covers all the rules and regulations with Paypal transcations. Maybe my english is not perfect, but I think you get the point.

Paypal is very welcome to join the forums and read all posts in marketplace area, it's all public.

I repeat: we have adviced people TO AVOID all deals with Paypal Gift - Paypal Gift has no seller or buyer protection so scammers love it.

https://photography-on-the.net …/showthread.php​?t=1074819 :
"Scammers want Paypal gift."

If that is not enough from out part then I do not know what is.

I do not want to put more (impossible) work for the mods (all volunteers) to track down all who try to violate Paypal's TOS, you can read the TOS and see for yourself how much work that would be: https://www.paypal.com …mpp/ua/useragre​ement-full (external link)

Later we will have a revamped marketplace system where payment methods are picked from a menu, there we can omit Paypal Gift. But still, it is easy for members to do whatever deals they want using phone, email, pm or face to face methods. We have not control over that, not want any control over that. A rule that we can not possibly enforce is not worth printing.


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Jul 19, 2014 06:18 |  #58

Lots of people standing on the moral high ground here. I assume these same people have never drove their cars 1mph over the speed limit, or perhaps had an alcoholic drink prior to turning 21 etc? Or is that acceptable law breaking (not that breaking T&C's is illegal)


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Jul 19, 2014 07:09 |  #59

You are doing fine Pekka, great job on a great board and the board to come! I understand the concerns folks have, but in the end, all one should really do is "if I don't like people using payment methods that violate their agreements, and I see it in a listing, then I won't do business with them.". That is the only thing that has to happen, we don't need everyone else babysitting a buyer and seller otherwise.

The best way to word a sale post is:

"I am asking $XXXX for this item, and I will offer a cash discount of $YYY if paid via cash/money order/check or other equivalent. I do accept electronic payments of Google Checkout, Chase QuickPay, Paypal, etc as well".

That doesn't violate any agreement, no matter how Paypal or others want to say it does. It was already proven that years and years ago, this isn't the first discussion for things like this. Paypal's rules were developed taking a credit card company's agreement from years prior. This was already vetted against credit card vendor rules. Also with the latest changes, now credit card fees can now be charged to the consumer in various situations, due to new laws, and that now applies to Paypal as well. Paypal agreements cannot trump law, and anything that does becomes unenforceable.


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Jul 19, 2014 09:02 |  #60

Pekka wrote in post #17040541 (external link)
We probably need a rule: "members who use PM to arrange a meeting where they eat unhealthy food and drink alcohol, not to mention watch episodes of "Walker, Texas Ranger", will be immediately banned".

Avoid dark alleys Pekka, Chuck Norris will be looking for you. ;)




  
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