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FORUMS Canon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon EOS Digital Cameras 
Thread started 20 Jul 2014 (Sunday) 02:29
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Give me a reason to stay with Canon?

 
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DocFrankenstein
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Jul 24, 2014 16:03 |  #151

gjl711 wrote in post #17053723 (external link)
They have already reverse engineered the mount for their lenses so it shouldn't be a very big step to apply what they have learned to the camera side as well.

I suspect (knowing nothing) that patent laws may protect the camera side more than the lens side to be the reason preventing camera production.


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Jul 24, 2014 16:05 |  #152

DocFrankenstein wrote in post #17053731 (external link)
I suspect (knowing nothing) that patent laws may protect the camera side more than the lens side to be the reason preventing camera production.

Possible, but why pattent the camera side and not the lens side?


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Jul 24, 2014 16:20 |  #153

DocFrankenstein wrote in post #17053709 (external link)
How does one make a camera in canon mount? Would you not have to have agreement from canon?

Its just a metal piece that can be reverse engineered right? 3rd party lens companies do it all day right?


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pwm2
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Jul 24, 2014 16:35 |  #154

Andrushka wrote in post #17053770 (external link)
Its just a metal piece that can be reverse engineered right? 3rd party lens companies do it all day right?

Most probably because Canon allows it, in the interest of getting access to a larger number of available lenses. But that doesn't mean Canon allows someone to use the same mount for a body.

And it's a bit late to come a number of years later and try to stop people from making compatible lenses - the law requires that a company that wants to protect their IP responds quite quickly when they observe any issues.


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Jul 24, 2014 16:45 |  #155

pwm2 wrote in post #17053813 (external link)
Most probably because Canon allows it, in the interest of getting access to a larger number of available lenses. But that doesn't mean Canon allows someone to use the same mount for a body.

And it's a bit late to come a number of years later and try to stop people from making compatible lenses - the law requires that a company that wants to protect their IP responds quite quickly when they observe any issues.

Couldn't that be why third parties don't make Canon or Nikon mount cameras anymore? Isn't it possible that they nipped that? It would make sense to me that most of their profit comes from body sales since people are more likely to replace their body with a newer model then a lens.

Also, Sigma has some fantastic lenses out these days, I wouldn't feel too bad about buying a body that only worked with their lenses.


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DocFrankenstein
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Jul 24, 2014 17:19 |  #156

Andrushka wrote in post #17053770 (external link)
Its just a metal piece that can be reverse engineered right? 3rd party lens companies do it all day right?

I suspect (knowing nothing) that a lot of electronic communication that's happening in the mount is proprietary. Who'd want a manual focus camera with no aperture control?

Also, Sigma has some fantastic lenses out these days, I wouldn't feel too bad about buying a body that only worked with their lenses.

But it's hard to find them used. It's hard to sell them as well.

That's the main reason for me not getting a sigma DSLR. I expect to toss every lens I buy, and I have to get it new. (and sony's sensors seem almost as good or better)

Maybe once patents on foveon expire in 8 years a larger manufacturer can make it in their cameras.


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pwm2
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Jul 24, 2014 18:33 |  #157

We don't really know how much of the communications protocol that Sigma understands.

There is a huge difference between being able to understand an older protocol standard and potentially pretend to be an older lens, and to understand enough of the protocol to be able to properly communicate with all Canon lenses.

Next thing is that the AF is very much someting that is done in cooperation between body and lens - and Canon has invested a lot in teaching newer bodies a lens database of important information about different lenses, to try to get better AF from the off-center AF points.

If Sigma did implement their own Canon-mount bodies, they might potentially manage better AF with their own lenses than they manage with a Canon body. But lots of people would be upset if they didn't also manage well with all the Canon lenses.

When something functions smoothly, people assume it is trivial. So they get expectations. Lots of the unhappy threads we see are from people who have had too great expectations.


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Jul 24, 2014 19:42 as a reply to  @ pwm2's post |  #158

Reasons to stick with Canon.

1. Service - My friend owned over $10K worth of Canon gear and switched to Nikon because he wanted the slightly better ISO and DR. Sold everything and got the equiv Nikor lenses. His complaint was that Nikon's service and repair is not as good as Canon. In my own experience, their service and customer support is top notch. I just became a CPS member and it is supposed to be even better.

2. Lenses - Look at the available Nikon / Nikor lenses with that of Canon. You do not have the holy grail of lenses 35mm f1.4, 50mm f1.2, 85mm f1.2, and 135mm f2. My Nikon buddies are so jealous of my 85mm and 135mm. If you're into architecture / landscape, you have the sharpest lens ever in the TS-E 17mm.

3. Street cred. :) - See a red ring around your lenses and you get respect from other photographers. I can't tell a Nikor lens from a Tamron. Not that there's anything wrong with Tamron.

4. Video - if you shoot video, Nikon had to try multiple times to get their video quality to look like Canon's first video capable DSLR. Better video ISO sensitivity and quality.

5. More Canon service centers in every country. I was in Iceland and they had one an authorized service center.

Camera bodies change frequently and one year Nikon is better, but then Canon the next. It goes back and forth, but lenses remain the same. I went with Canon purely for their lens lineup. Invest in the best L lenses and upgrade your body every 3-4 years. Don't get too much into the technical numbers or pixel peeping. With a proper understanding of exposure, you can get great dynamic range from any high-end DSLR. If you keep blowing up your highlights and underexposing your shadows, then go with a Nikon.


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Jul 24, 2014 19:51 |  #159
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Jul 24, 2014 20:50 |  #160

sf_loft wrote in post #17054172 (external link)
Reasons to stick with Canon.

1. Service - My friend owned over $10K worth of Canon gear and switched to Nikon because he wanted the slightly better ISO and DR. Sold everything and got the equiv Nikor lenses. His complaint was that Nikon's service and repair is not as good as Canon. In my own experience, their service and customer support is top notch. I just became a CPS member and it is supposed to be even better.

2. Lenses - Look at the available Nikon / Nikor lenses with that of Canon. You do not have the holy grail of lenses 35mm f1.4, 50mm f1.2, 85mm f1.2, and 135mm f2. My Nikon buddies are so jealous of my 85mm and 135mm. If you're into architecture / landscape, you have the sharpest lens ever in the TS-E 17mm.

3. Street cred. :) - See a red ring around your lenses and you get respect from other photographers. I can't tell a Nikor lens from a Tamron. Not that there's anything wrong with Tamron.

4. Video - if you shoot video, Nikon had to try multiple times to get their video quality to look like Canon's first video capable DSLR. Better video ISO sensitivity and quality.

5. More Canon service centers in every country. I was in Iceland and they had one an authorized service center.

Camera bodies change frequently and one year Nikon is better, but then Canon the next. It goes back and forth, but lenses remain the same. I went with Canon purely for their lens lineup. Invest in the best L lenses and upgrade your body every 3-4 years. Don't get too much into the technical numbers or pixel peeping. With a proper understanding of exposure, you can get great dynamic range from any high-end DSLR. If you keep blowing up your highlights and underexposing your shadows, then go with a Nikon.

Decided to have a bit of play with your reasoning on why to stick with Canon.

1. Service:
Never really needed a body or lens serviced by either company yet so can't really give you an informed opinion on either Nikons or Canons service time or quality. Remember though that each company has had its share of gaffs so please don't go mentioning ones mistakes without first thinking of how the other has dropped the ball.

2. Lens:
Okay, you mentioned the "Holy Grail" of Canons lineup and it's good without an arguement from myself. However Nikons 85 f/1.4G is as highly regarded in the Nikon camp as Canons "Holy" 85L. The Nikon 85's bokeh is excellent and the lens itself is lighter and focuses waaaaaaaaaaaay faster than the "keg".
Other lens are very much similar with respect to a few of either companies specialty lens one may not have an answer too.
I'll also note I've never heard any Nikon shooter say "boy I sure wished I had any canon body with the TS-E 17mm instead of my Nikon D800/Nikon 16-35mm f/4 VR or D800/Nikon 14-24mm AFS f/2.8 G ED". Or when shooting landscapes in particular I don't ever hear one Nikon shooter say they don't appreciate the extra dynamic range on the Sony sensors found in the newer Nikon/Sony bodies.

3. Street Cred:
Canon ran that one into the ground themselves. Now anytime I or many people see a "red" ring lens on a Canon body we presume it's a rebel with a 24-105 attached and a local mom/pop craigslist photographer behind the shutter.
Especially like how this same person with the above mentioned setup doen't have an external flash but is using the popup flash at sunset or midday from 20' away or further. Street Cred indeed, that's the result of flooding the market with all the "kit L" lens". Now the masses have them and certainly some don't have any Idea how to use them.;)

4. Video:
I may be in the minority but when I want to shoot a video of something I deem important, I reach for a dedicated video camera and not a dslr. If you are going after something artistic then I can see the reason, but for day to day filming I don't see one recommendation on the internet saying they prefer a dslr body over a dedicated video camera.

5. More Canon service centers in every country:
I'm located not very near any Canon or Nikon service center so any servicing would be done by sending the body or lens in so it's a wash for me. Can't speak for anyone else so I'll leave it at that.

6. Camera bodies change frequently and one year Nikon is better, but then Canon the next:
With Canon going it solo in the development of their sensors/bodies/lens it may prove to be their eventual undoing. I believe the Nikon/Sony "alliance" is just the beginning and everyone should expect more of the same as other competitors begin to follow suit. Cultivating and combining individual ideas and resources into a finished product that is greater than the sum of its parts is the future of the manufacturing process. Canons willingness or stubborness, depending on how you view it to go it alone is going against the grain of what many companies are doing to stay competitive in today's market. Time will tell whethor or not Canon is a visionary company or becomes a footnote in the industry.

Have a good day.


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Jul 24, 2014 23:24 |  #161

Thorrulz wrote in post #17054298 (external link)
6. Camera bodies change frequently and one year Nikon is better, but then Canon the next:
With Canon going it solo in the development of their sensors/bodies/lens it may prove to be their eventual undoing. I believe the Nikon/Sony "alliance" is just the beginning and everyone should expect more of the same as other competitors begin to follow suit. Cultivating and combining individual ideas and resources into a finished product that is greater than the sum of its parts is the future of the manufacturing process. Canons willingness or stubborness, depending on how you view it to go it alone is going against the grain of what many companies are doing to stay competitive in today's market. Time will tell whethor or not Canon is a visionary company or becomes a footnote in the industry.

Have a good day.

I completely disagree with this... competition is ALWAYS a good thing for the consumer. When one company has a monopoly over a technology they have little need to improve it and it drives prices up.

I give massive kudos to Canon for not just buying whatever the hot commodity was, and they really never needed to, they still outsell Nikon at pretty much every curve and given their history I'm confident that they're not going to sit idly by while people advance their sensor tech. It makes perfect sense that they've been working on a new sensor and aren't going to release it until it's ready. I'm excited to see what they come up with along with the next Fuji/Panasonic installment.

It's definitely a good time to be a photographer, there really aren't any "bad" options from any brand.


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Jul 24, 2014 23:49 |  #162

sf_loft wrote in post #17054172 (external link)
3. Street cred. :)

Preposterous.

Anyone who receives "respect" from someone due to a red ring on their lens, should be pretty much embarassed. And anyone giving respect solely based on the red ring should equally be embarassed. I know quite a few people who will probably produce better photos with way, way lesser gear than these kinds of people. The photographs should earn the creator respect.

This goes right in line with people who say "Man, you must have a nice camera!" It's an insult, if anything, to hear that.

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Jul 25, 2014 00:07 |  #163
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Jul 25, 2014 02:49 |  #164

Thorrulz wrote in post #17054298 (external link)
Decided to have a bit of play with your reasoning on why to stick with Canon.


6. Camera bodies change frequently and one year Nikon is better, but then Canon the next:
With Canon going it solo in the development of their sensors/bodies/lens it may prove to be their eventual undoing. I believe the Nikon/Sony "alliance" is just the beginning and everyone should expect more of the same as other competitors begin to follow suit. Cultivating and combining individual ideas and resources into a finished product that is greater than the sum of its parts is the future of the manufacturing process. Canons willingness or stubborness, depending on how you view it to go it alone is going against the grain of what many companies are doing to stay competitive in today's market. Time will tell whethor or not Canon is a visionary company or becomes a footnote in the industry.

Have a good day.

You sound like Canon did you wrong somehow...
Not sure how you came to this assumption. Canon is plenty competitive and companies form partnerships mainly to reduce cost, increase profits, and fill areas of weakness. Nikon probably didn't want to invest in the research and development to continue to produce sensors and decided to license Sony's. Makes a lot of sense to improve the bottom line.

Both Canon and Nikon's worst nightmare is the ever increasing mirrorless camera market. If they don't get in the game right, both will become footnotes in the industry. Most likely Sony's ****. There will still be a market for DSLR's, but a majority chunk of the prosumer, hobbyist, and enthusiasts will move to the smaller, lighter, and less expensive mirorless systems. Since I picked up my Fujifilm X-T1, I have been using it more than my 5DIII. Their prime lenses rival that of Canon's or Nikon's in sharpness, bokeh, and build quality. For roughly $4000 I was able to get an X-T1 body, 23 1.4, 35 1.4, and 56 1.2. Compare this to $8000+ for the 5D III + holy trinity set of lenses. All 3 fuji lenses + body fits in a small bag and weighs less than my 5DIII + an attached lens.

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TOKYO, Japan, March 27, 2014—Canon Inc. today announced that the Company's interchangeable-lens digital cameras (digital SLR and compact-system cameras) have maintained the No. 1 share worldwide in terms of volume within the interchangeable-lens digital camera market for the 11-year period from 2003 to 2013


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Jul 25, 2014 02:58 |  #165

An important thing to remember about sensors and Canon.

Canon not only makes sensors.
They also design, build and sell fabrication equipment to produce sensors.

So while I do think the management did some incorrect decision about how long to hold onto the older technologies, they are a significant force to recon with.

On this forum, we constantly see posts indicating that Canon can't make sensors. But I actually think that Sony is more than a little nervous. Right now, they do make money. But lot of things can happen that will make the advantage move towards Canon sensors.

This is not a battle where it's the world against poor Canon, but a battle where Canon has significant muscles to fight. And there will be fighting and lots of blood because the huge boom in DSLR, bridge and P&S cameras is about to end. The market will shrink a lot. And a question then is if Sony will stay and fight. History has seen them give up in other product areas.


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