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Thread started 26 Jul 2014 (Saturday) 10:13
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Fate of 7D

 
pknight
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Jul 31, 2014 09:48 |  #31

rrblint wrote in post #17067985 (external link)
No thanks, I'll wait for Eye Control on the new one.

It is difficult to judge how popular eye-control actually was based on forum posts, but I have to assume that there was some serious problem with it for Canon to drop what seems to be an obviously useful feature. Eye-tracking technology (in non-photography applications) has improved a lot, so perhaps someone will bring it back. However, it may also be that this level of accuracy is cost- or technology-prohibitive for including in a camera.

I suspect that with 40+ focus points on many cameras, there may be problems with eye tracking making reliable distinctions between adjacent points. The old EOS eye-control system operated with a small number of points, which probably made it more reliable. If there is any advantage to having dozens of focus points, useful eye-control would have to reliably detect fine differences in where the eye is looking to fully realize this advantage. Given the 100% reliable (albeit more complex) joystick-control of focus points we have now, any inability of eye control to accurately utilize all of the points will probably limit its acceptance.


Digital EOS 90D Canon: EF 50mm f/1.8 II, EF 50mm f/2.5 Compact Macro, Life-Size Converter EF Tamron: SP 17-50mm f/2.8 DiII, 18-400mm f/3.5-6.3 DiII VC HLD, SP 150-600 f/5-6.3 Di VC USD G2, SP 70-200 f/2.8 Di VC USD, 10-24mm f/3.5-4.5 DiII VC HLD Sigma: 30mm f/1.4 DC Art Rokinon: 8mm f/3.5 AS IF UMC

  
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pknight
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Jul 31, 2014 10:08 |  #32

Gaarryy wrote in post #17068025 (external link)
When you say "stable" vs. what about is it not stable? I have ML on my 7d and only use a couple features, but have never had a problem with it. But I've also never used ML on any other camera so it could be that I just don't know any better since I don't have a frame of reference

Well, Magic Lantern themselves lists only six models as being compatible with their stable release. I assume that they have a reason for this. According to ML, the code available for the 7D is untested and undocumented, and is there primarily for willing users to help them debug the code. It is essentially beta code, and parts of it work as intended, but there are still problems and disabled features.

Some, if not all, of the cameras supported by the stable release of ML are newer than the 7D. They had problems early on with the 7D because of its dual DIGIC chips, but eventually cracked that problem. That was quite some time ago, but the 7D ML code is still only available in what ML classifies as its unstable nightly builds. I really don't know, given the time that has elapsed, that a stable 7D release will happen.


Digital EOS 90D Canon: EF 50mm f/1.8 II, EF 50mm f/2.5 Compact Macro, Life-Size Converter EF Tamron: SP 17-50mm f/2.8 DiII, 18-400mm f/3.5-6.3 DiII VC HLD, SP 150-600 f/5-6.3 Di VC USD G2, SP 70-200 f/2.8 Di VC USD, 10-24mm f/3.5-4.5 DiII VC HLD Sigma: 30mm f/1.4 DC Art Rokinon: 8mm f/3.5 AS IF UMC

  
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aladyforty
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Jul 31, 2014 10:10 as a reply to  @ post 17067554 |  #33

I am hoping 7DII will be amazing, I have the 5DIII and love it for portrait landscape and stuff I can get close to and dont need speed. Right now the 7D is my wildlife birding camera and there are times where it disapoints me, (cloudy days and low light) and times when I am amazed by it. I wont sell it, it will probably become my husbands backup camera to his 7D.


FUJI XT3 CANON 5D3 & a bunch of lenses for both
https://500px.com/alad​yforty (external link) https://www.flickr.com​/photos/25426422@N00/ (external link)

  
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Paulstw
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Jul 31, 2014 10:12 as a reply to  @ post 17067554 |  #34

I just hope for everyones sake that the reality of whatever comes matches the expectation.




  
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Gaarryy
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Jul 31, 2014 10:21 |  #35

Paulstw wrote in post #17068099 (external link)
I just hope for everyones sake that the reality of whatever comes matches the expectation.



Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!​!!!!!!!!!

now that's funny... reality meeting expectations on the internet. Nicely done Sir


---------------Camera, Lens, Flash stuff.. but still wanting more

  
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pknight
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Jul 31, 2014 10:23 |  #36

Paulstw wrote in post #17068099 (external link)
I just hope for everyones sake that the reality of whatever comes matches the expectation.

Some people are certain to be disappointed. A report on Canon Rumors that the 7D replacement will have "a lot of the 1DX" has led to wild speculation about what might be in the new model. Most of this speculation seems to indicate that some folks want much more than seems reasonable, while hoping for bargain-basement prices.:)


Digital EOS 90D Canon: EF 50mm f/1.8 II, EF 50mm f/2.5 Compact Macro, Life-Size Converter EF Tamron: SP 17-50mm f/2.8 DiII, 18-400mm f/3.5-6.3 DiII VC HLD, SP 150-600 f/5-6.3 Di VC USD G2, SP 70-200 f/2.8 Di VC USD, 10-24mm f/3.5-4.5 DiII VC HLD Sigma: 30mm f/1.4 DC Art Rokinon: 8mm f/3.5 AS IF UMC

  
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venom3300
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Jul 31, 2014 10:43 |  #37

pknight wrote in post #17068057 (external link)
It is difficult to judge how popular eye-control actually was based on forum posts, but I have to assume that there was some serious problem with it for Canon to drop what seems to be an obviously useful feature. Eye-tracking technology (in non-photography applications) has improved a lot, so perhaps someone will bring it back. However, it may also be that this level of accuracy is cost- or technology-prohibitive for including in a camera.

I suspect that with 40+ focus points on many cameras, there may be problems with eye tracking making reliable distinctions between adjacent points. The old EOS eye-control system operated with a small number of points, which probably made it more reliable. If there is any advantage to having dozens of focus points, useful eye-control would have to reliably detect fine differences in where the eye is looking to fully realize this advantage. Given the 100% reliable (albeit more complex) joystick-control of focus points we have now, any inability of eye control to accurately utilize all of the points will probably limit its acceptance.

They could create a limited focus point mode for eye control, perhaps using 11 focus points to improve accuracy. In non eye control, it could continue to use the usual 9 billion some odd points they are up to now. Just a thought.


Bodies: Nikon D800,Canon Rebel GII, Pentax K1000
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Gaarryy
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Jul 31, 2014 10:45 as a reply to  @ post 17067554 |  #38

I except the camera to be water proof with any canon lens to a depth of 100 meters and a revolutionary sensor that allows the underwater pictures to be perfect with lights. In fact i want to be at least 50 ft under water and be able to capture the birds flying over head out of the water.
At a price point of $899.

now that is speculation


---------------Camera, Lens, Flash stuff.. but still wanting more

  
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rrblint
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Jul 31, 2014 10:49 |  #39

pknight wrote in post #17068057 (external link)
It is difficult to judge how popular eye-control actually was based on forum posts, but I have to assume that there was some serious problem with it for Canon to drop what seems to be an obviously useful feature. Eye-tracking technology (in non-photography applications) has improved a lot, so perhaps someone will bring it back. However, it may also be that this level of accuracy is cost- or technology-prohibitive for including in a camera.

I suspect that with 40+ focus points on many cameras, there may be problems with eye tracking making reliable distinctions between adjacent points. The old EOS eye-control system operated with a small number of points, which probably made it more reliable. If there is any advantage to having dozens of focus points, useful eye-control would have to reliably detect fine differences in where the eye is looking to fully realize this advantage. Given the 100% reliable (albeit more complex) joystick-control of focus points we have now, any inability of eye control to accurately utilize all of the points will probably limit its acceptance.

This has all been discussed at great length HERE ON THIS THREAD but just to answer the couple of points that you bring up:

1.) The problem was that it didn't work for about 10% of the population due to limitations of camera processors of the early 1990s. This can be easily fixed now with today's processors which are orders of magnitude faster and more powerful than 1990s processors.

2.) The more focus points that a camera has the slower and more cumbersome the joystick becomes and the more useful that ECF becomes.

3.) A version of ECF that appeared in 1998 on the EOS 3 was quite capable of handling 45 AF points. Again, with today's processors hundreds of AFPs could be handled with ease.


Mark

  
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pknight
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Jul 31, 2014 11:01 |  #40

rrblint wrote in post #17068170 (external link)
This has all been discussed at great length HERE ON THIS THREAD but just to answer the couple of points that you bring up:

1.) The problem was that it didn't work for about 10% of the population due to limitations of camera processors of the early 1990s. This can be easily fixed now with today's processors which are orders of magnitude faster and more powerful than 1990s processors.

2.) The more focus points that a camera has the slower and more cumbersome the joystick becomes and the more useful that ECF becomes.

3.) A version of ECF that appeared in 1998 on the EOS 3 was quite capable of handling 45 AF points. Again, with today's processors hundreds of AFPs could be handled with ease.

OK. Then the reason Canon dropped it remain unknown.


Digital EOS 90D Canon: EF 50mm f/1.8 II, EF 50mm f/2.5 Compact Macro, Life-Size Converter EF Tamron: SP 17-50mm f/2.8 DiII, 18-400mm f/3.5-6.3 DiII VC HLD, SP 150-600 f/5-6.3 Di VC USD G2, SP 70-200 f/2.8 Di VC USD, 10-24mm f/3.5-4.5 DiII VC HLD Sigma: 30mm f/1.4 DC Art Rokinon: 8mm f/3.5 AS IF UMC

  
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archer1960
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Jul 31, 2014 11:05 |  #41

bk2life wrote in post #17067592 (external link)
Might be time to convert the ole 7d to IR only at these prices..

I'd jump on a new-to-me 7D and do a full-spectrum mod on my T1i for astrophotography.


Gripped 7D, gripped, full-spectrum modfied T1i (500D), SX50HS, A2E film body, Tamzooka (150-600), Tamron 90mm/2.8 VC (ver 2), Tamron 18-270 VC, Canon FD 100 f/4.0 macro, Canon 24-105 f/4L,Canon EF 200 f/2.8LII, Canon 85 f/1.8, Tamron Adaptall 2 90mmf/2.5 Macro, Tokina 11-16, Canon EX-430 flash, Vivitar DF-383 flash, Astro-Tech AT6RC and Celestron NexStar 102 GT telescopes, various other semi-crappy manual lenses and stuff.

  
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LudaChris
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Jul 31, 2014 11:12 as a reply to  @ post 17067554 |  #42

I'm still shooting on a 40D and the 7D refurb price is tempting. I'll upgrade to something different eventually, just not sure when. I doubt I'll ever buy a "new" model. I'm fine with being a step or two behind the latest and greatest.


[Insert Cool Camera Gear Here]

  
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Jul 31, 2014 11:42 as a reply to  @ post 17067554 |  #43

sweet, I need a throw away body to suctioncup mount on drift cars


Canon 1DX III | 1DX | 6D II | 6D | 16-35/2.8 II | 24-70/2.8 II | 35/1.4 II | 50/1.8 | 70-200/2.8 IS II | 85/1.4 IS | 100/2.8 IS macro | 200mm f/2 | 400/2.8 IS II | 2xIII
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kfreels
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Jul 31, 2014 11:43 |  #44

pknight wrote in post #17068057 (external link)
It is difficult to judge how popular eye-control actually was based on forum posts, but I have to assume that there was some serious problem with it for Canon to drop what seems to be an obviously useful feature. Eye-tracking technology (in non-photography applications) has improved a lot, so perhaps someone will bring it back. However, it may also be that this level of accuracy is cost- or technology-prohibitive for including in a camera.

I suspect that with 40+ focus points on many cameras, there may be problems with eye tracking making reliable distinctions between adjacent points. The old EOS eye-control system operated with a small number of points, which probably made it more reliable. If there is any advantage to having dozens of focus points, useful eye-control would have to reliably detect fine differences in where the eye is looking to fully realize this advantage. Given the 100% reliable (albeit more complex) joystick-control of focus points we have now, any inability of eye control to accurately utilize all of the points will probably limit its acceptance.

There's an entire thread about ECF and a few of us have done some extensive research into this. To start, the Eos 3 had 45 AF points and worked perfectly fine. It was much faster and more accurate (for me) than my joystick and wheels are on the 7D. With both you either have to go slow enough to count clicks or individual pushes of the joystick for each point of movement, or you risk overshooting or stopping short of your intended point. I can do it pretty quickly on my 7D with just 19 points and I could probably do it on a 1D or 5DIII as well but when compared to the ECF on the Eos 3, it's laborious. The true value of ECF increases as AF points increase.

From what we could deduce from a variety of sources, the problem was one of sampling frequency. Every person's eyes constantly vibrate (for lack of a better word). The point of focus is moving around randomly and rapidly. The ECF system sampled this at a certain frequency and made an average. Calibration determined where that average was. But if the user's eye movement frequency varied, or if it got too close to the sampling frequency itself, then it could cause problems. Sometimes glasses could be a culprit as well but this had more to do with the RX and the distance of the eye from the eye cup.

But those weren't that common. The various sources we've been able to find gave stated ranges of problems anywhere from 3-7%. No more or less than people have success with servo focus mode and other such features.

The product itself wasn't pulled. Cameras with ECF were manufactured until about 2007 when they got out of the prosumer 35mm camera business. So just 7 years ago you could buy a new Eos 3 with 45 AF points and ECF. Overall, they made ECF cameras for about 12 years. This is hardly the mark of a failed product. The problem appears to be more to do with processing. The ECF was processor intensive for the processors of the time. But a film camera didn't have much else to process. But once the move was made to digital there was both a space crunch for the electronics and a processor crunch where the processors were barely able to keep up with the tasks it already had. Throwing ECF in on top of it would have been nearly impossible. Plus, if you were going to continue the product, you would want to have an improved version to reduce the number of people with problems. Cost was also another factor. Digital sensors meant that the lifecycle of cameras was shorter while the expense was greater. And they were already much more expensive than film cameras without the ECF cost. ECF was optional and you paid more for a camera with ECF. Plus, it was a battery hog. In the end, it didn't make a lot of sense to add it to digital cameras.

Fast forward to now. The megapixel race has slowed. Mobile processors have become incredibly powerful and cheap. The electronics have become smaller. Battery tech has come a long way. It would cost less to implement now. It would use a much smaller fraction of the power and resources. Sampling frequencies could be increased tenfold without need for more powerful processors. Algorithms can be put in place to analyze the eye movement in real-time and correct for lots of things that just wasn't possible before. You can do things such as variable sampling rates which would virtually eliminate the sampling problem. And with a joystick you can have instant over-ride of a bad AF point select with a simple nudge of the stick.

When it comes down to it, If Canon finds themselves in need of a differentiator, then this could very well do the trick. The only reason not to do it now is to simply hold the technology until there's a need for such a differentiator and now, with a 7DII which the 7D is known as the engineer's plaything anyways, seems like the right time and right camera for it. If it isn't in this one, it would probably lie dormant until a mk III version or other replacement came around.


I am serious....and don't call me Shirley.
Canon 7D and a bunch of other stuff

  
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Jaejin0417
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Jul 31, 2014 12:20 as a reply to  @ post 17067554 |  #45

I currently have a 40D which has a dying shutter button and am considering upgrading to a used 7D or 60D. Leaning towards the 7D as many people say the 60D is not much of an improvement to the 40D. What are your speculations?


Canon 70D
Sigma 70-200 2.8 OS
Canon 24-70 2.8L

  
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Fate of 7D
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