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Thread started 28 Jul 2014 (Monday) 15:27
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Why Canon, when Nikon...

 
CRCchemist
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Aug 08, 2014 10:59 |  #151

Pagman wrote in post #17083976 (external link)
But Panasonic do use some excellent glass with some of there cameras leica for example, isn't that on par with canon or nikon glass?


P.

It is on par. But what he is talking about is when you need to use the MP-E 65mm f/2.8 for a detailed abstract shot. Or the 400mm f/2.8 IS II for a sports shot. And it's impossible to find an equivalent of the TS-E 24mm f/3.5 II. That's what he means when he talks about Canon lens engineering.




  
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Glenn ­ NK
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Aug 08, 2014 11:29 |  #152

pwm2 wrote in post #17066687 (external link)
But it really wouldn't be so good for us.

Because it would also force upon us the common bad of that mount too.

What if the mount is for focus motor inside the camera body? Who would then be able to invent fast ultrasonic AF in the lens, instead of the user having to hear the gears when the body motor runs the lens?

But if the universal mount was the EOS mount, it would be the best available wouldn't it.

Is there a better one? There are probably some equals, but none better.


When did voluptuous become voluminous?

  
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pwm2
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Aug 08, 2014 13:27 |  #153

Glenn NK wrote in post #17084157 (external link)
But if the universal mount was the EOS mount, it would be the best available wouldn't it.

Is there a better one? There are probably some equals, but none better.

Well, let Canon release some great mirrorless bodies, and then the EF mount would suddenly have the problem that it forces a significant minimum distance between sensor and lens. Which means that it doesn't allow wider lenses to be moved closer to the sensor and thereby allowing them to be made smaller.

So the current EF mount is not any magical best. It's just a mount that happens to be reasonably good based on the main design parameters that interested Canon at the time they released it.

That's why Canon has later introduced EF-S and EF-M - two alternative mounts giving advantages when prioritizing a different set of design parameters.

In the end, there will never be any "best", because there will never be a single set of optimum design parameters you want to fulfill. And that is why a single world-wide unifying standard will always have to be a sub-optimal standard that will seriously limit the possibilities in some directions.


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Glenn ­ NK
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Aug 08, 2014 17:16 |  #154

pwm2 wrote in post #17084351 (external link)
Well, let Canon release some great mirrorless bodies, and then the EF mount would suddenly have the problem that it forces a significant minimum distance between sensor and lens. Which means that it doesn't allow wider lenses to be moved closer to the sensor and thereby allowing them to be made smaller.

So the current EF mount is not any magical best. It's just a mount that happens to be reasonably good based on the main design parameters that interested Canon at the time they released it.

That's why Canon has later introduced EF-S and EF-M - two alternative mounts giving advantages when prioritizing a different set of design parameters.

In the end, there will never be any "best", because there will never be a single set of optimum design parameters you want to fulfill. And that is why a single world-wide unifying standard will always have to be a sub-optimal standard that will seriously limit the possibilities in some directions.

Correct.

There can be no one "best" mount - I regularly get annoyed by the very common question on forums: "what is the best _ _ _ _ "?

In regard to the 24 x 36 mm format, I think the Canon EOS has only equals at best, but none better. It's a very rugged mount and seldom causes any trouble (just read a few Nikon forums about the Nikon aperture control system).

Interestingly, it's quite a bit larger in diameter than Nikon's mount which from a structural point of view is stronger (I'm a structural engineer - larger diameter tubes are stiffer than smaller ones). The large mount also less restrictive on the size of the light path to the sensor, so if the lenses were optically adequate, an even large sensor could be accommodated on the EOS mount. Interesting isn't it - I wonder how much the format could be increased with the EOS mount?

In essence, the EF and EF-S are the same mount. It's primarily the larger mirror of the FF bodies that excludes EF-S lenses from FF bodies. The image circle from a EF-S lens is a potential problem too, but could be solved optically.

The EOS mount may not be perfect but I think that it's better than those in second place.;)

Glenn


When did voluptuous become voluminous?

  
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nekrosoft13
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Aug 08, 2014 17:40 |  #155
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CRCchemist wrote in post #17068767 (external link)
Here's the honest truth:

If you are a good photographer, you will have images taken with a Canon 20D published before a guy with a D810 that is a bad photographer.

yes, but would you buy that 20D if it was 500-800 dollars more expensive than D810?


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Kylemorgan88
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Aug 09, 2014 01:30 |  #156

nekrosoft13 wrote in post #17084728 (external link)
yes, but would you buy that 20D if it was 500-800 dollars more expensive than D810?

Exactly. We aren't seriously discussing the differences between a pro photog with a subpar body vs a pro photog with a cutting edge camera. We are examining the different tools available and why canon is lagging a step or two behind the competition. Everyone knows talent trumps technology, but why would a world class talent voluntarily put themselves behind less than the cutting edge?




  
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CRCchemist
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Aug 09, 2014 03:18 |  #157

Kylemorgan88 wrote in post #17085283 (external link)
Exactly. We aren't seriously discussing the differences between a pro photog with a subpar body vs a pro photog with a cutting edge camera. We are examining the different tools available and why canon is lagging a step or two behind the competition. Everyone knows talent trumps technology, but why would a world class talent voluntarily put themselves behind less than the cutting edge?

Well yeah. That's why there's medium format and all the top magazines with staff photographers use the Phase Ones and Hassies. Every Playboy centerfold is still photographed in medium format. Just as it has always been for 50 years.

Top landscape photographers use the large format and medium format cameras. And the top commercial photographers use Hassleblad cameras for the medium format advantages.

We're just the poor guys stuck with the 35mm format lumped in the crowd with the photojournalists.




  
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Mornnb
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Aug 09, 2014 07:58 |  #158

Hogloff wrote in post #17063434 (external link)
Totally wrong...once you blow out a highlight...it is gone. No fiddling in LR will rescue from a blown highlight.

Not quite.... anyone who regularly shoots landscape, architecture and similar such things will be intimately familiar with the extreme dynamic range you need to deal with. There is no avoiding it. You can expose to avoid blowing the highlights, but you are still left with limited tonal range in the highlights and noise in the shadows. Vibrancy settings can help with the limited tonal range in the highlights, and noise filters can help with the shadows. Still, there is still only so much you can do without picking up a Sony A7r.
The Sony sensor is far superior to Canon's and if not for the dodgy white balance and weak battery life of the A7R I probably would have picked one up by now for landscape shooting. Canon still wins in usability, lenses and autofocus and I'm sure they'll fix the sensor in the future.

CRCchemist wrote in post #17085370 (external link)
Well yeah. That's why there's medium format and all the top magazines with staff photographers use the Phase Ones and Hassies. Every Playboy centerfold is still photographed in medium format. Just as it has always been for 50 years.

You underestimate just how good the Sony sensors are. In terms of landscape in fact the Phase One is beaten by the Sony A7R for dynamic range.

http://www.dxomark.com​/Cameras/Sony/A7R (external link)

http://www.dxomark.com …se-One/IQ180-Digital-Back (external link)

Granted though medium format is going to have unmatched resolution.


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Charlie
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Aug 09, 2014 08:24 |  #159

Mornnb wrote in post #17085613 (external link)
Not quite.... anyone who regularly shoots landscape, architecture and similar such things will be intimately familiar with the extreme dynamic range you need to deal with. There is no avoiding it. You can expose to avoid blowing the highlights, but you are still left with limited tonal range in the highlights and noise in the shadows. Vibrancy settings can help with the limited tonal range in the highlights, and noise filters can help with the shadows. Still, there is still only so much you can do without picking up a Sony A7r.
The Sony sensor is far superior to Canon's and if not for the dodgy white balance and weak battery life of the A7R I probably would have picked one up by now for landscape shooting. Canon still wins in usability, lenses and autofocus and I'm sure they'll fix the sensor in the future.

You underestimate just how good the Sony sensors are. In terms of landscape in fact the Phase One is beaten by the Sony A7R for dynamic range.

http://www.dxomark.com​/Cameras/Sony/A7R (external link)

http://www.dxomark.com …se-One/IQ180-Digital-Back (external link)

Granted though medium format is going to have unmatched resolution.

dodgy battery is subjective for landscapes. if you're using a dslr in live view for landscapes, it's probably just as bad. As for comparing to phase one, I'm pretty sure it means different things to different formats. iq 180 is a crop camera right?


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Mornnb
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Aug 09, 2014 08:35 |  #160

No... the IQ180 is a 80MP medium format camera with a 53.7 x 40.4mm sensor... the largest format digital camera money can buy. It only costs $50k...
The cost of manufacturing silicon chips rises exponentially as the size increases. The 36x24mm Leica format is the best compromise between performance and price in the digital age I think it's fair to say. Although Pentax has pulled off a 43.8 x 32.8mm medium format for just $8500.


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davesrose
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Aug 09, 2014 08:55 |  #161

Mornnb wrote in post #17085613 (external link)
Not quite.... anyone who regularly shoots landscape, architecture and similar such things will be intimately familiar with the extreme dynamic range you need to deal with. There is no avoiding it. You can expose to avoid blowing the highlights, but you are still left with limited tonal range in the highlights and noise in the shadows.

The dynamic range of a digital picture is ultimately limited to the file's bit depth. There are more values of light (and detail) at the higher stops of light. Currently, if you believe in DXO's DR ratings, the Nikon D810 has the highest rating. The maximum bit depth of your recorded image is still going to be 14 bpc. The 14th stop has most of your detail in highlights, and also has 4096 levels of tone.

That's still not enough recorded range for some landscape scenes. If you want to capture the full range of a scene with the sun in the background, you may have to bracket exposures and overlay them in post. It's not like the Sony sensors are limitless in their dynamic range, and the difference between other sensors is not as great as some make it out to be. Finding a correct exposure, especially in a scene that exceeds 14 stops of light, is the same with any brand of camera.


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Mornnb
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Aug 09, 2014 09:13 |  #162

davesrose wrote in post #17085695 (external link)
The dynamic range of a digital picture is ultimately limited to the file's bit depth. There are more values of light (and detail) at the higher stops of light. Currently, if you believe in DXO's DR ratings, the Nikon D810 has the highest rating. The maximum bit depth of your recorded image is still going to be 14 bpc. The 14th stop has most of your detail in highlights, and also has 4096 levels of tone.

The 5D3 is ranked at 11.7 DR, the Nikon D810 at 14.8DR.
Sensors do not produce all the tones necessary to full the 14 bits per channel the A/D converter provides, which is good as you do not want the limit to be the bit depth! With 11.7 vs 14.8 we are talking about a 21% difference. That means the D810 is picking up 21% more tones at the extremes than the 5D3, which makes an extremely obvious difference for the photographer when they are pushing the cameras to the extremes and are pushing and pulling the shadows and highlights.

Here's what 11.7 vs 14.8 DR actually looks like with a 100% crop, shadows pulled up by 4 stops. 5D3 vs D800.
The Sony sensor is so good that most of the time you won't need graduated filters or HDR.

http://www.fredmiranda​.com …dex_controlled-tests.html (external link)

IMAGE: http://www.fredmiranda.com/5DIII-D800/t/canon-mk3-2b.jpg

IMAGE: http://www.fredmiranda.com/5DIII-D800/t/nikon2b.jpg

Canon 5D Mark III - Leica M240
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davesrose
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Aug 09, 2014 09:25 |  #163

Mornnb wrote in post #17085719 (external link)
The 5D3 is ranked at 11.7 DR, the Nikon D810 at 14.8DR.

If you believe in DXO scores. Since DXO is very secretive of how they get these numbers (pulled from the RAW files), I take their comparisons with a grain of salt.

Mornnb wrote in post #17085719 (external link)
Sensors do not produce all the tones necessary to full the 14 bits per channel the A/D converter provides, which is good as you do not want the limit to be the bit depth!

At 100 ISO, and overexposing, the sensor does record more levels of light then what the file bit depth is (especially if you believe DXO's numbers). With any digital system...higher bit depth means better representation of detail (in audio, better fidelity of frequencies and db...in photography, more levels of light).

The Fred Miranda comparisons are a good example of why ETTR is the typical recommendation in exposing a landscape. I shoot for my highlights and never have to bump my shadows by that much. Again, more of your levels of tone are also going to be in the higher stops of light. One doesn't usually upscale an image either (the author states he upscaled the 5D file to 36MP).

Mornnb wrote in post #17085719 (external link)
As you can see, the Sony sensor is so good that most of the time you won't need graduated filters or HDR.

You haven't provided an example of a HDR scene...all Sony sensor cameras are still limited to 14 stops of light exposure. In landscape photography, there's still plenty of times you're in situations that need ND filters and/or multiple exposures.


Canon 5D mk IV
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enginyr
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Aug 09, 2014 10:33 |  #164

This is not canon vs Nikon. It's 5d3 vs d810. D810 is better for 6 to 8 months. End of story.


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CRCchemist
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Aug 09, 2014 12:30 |  #165

Mornnb wrote in post #17085719 (external link)
The 5D3 is ranked at 11.7 DR, the Nikon D810 at 14.8DR.
Sensors do not produce all the tones necessary to full the 14 bits per channel the A/D converter provides, which is good as you do not want the limit to be the bit depth! With 11.7 vs 14.8 we are talking about a 21% difference. That means the D810 is picking up 21% more tones at the extremes than the 5D3, which makes an extremely obvious difference for the photographer when they are pushing the cameras to the extremes and are pushing and pulling the shadows and highlights.

Here's what 11.7 vs 14.8 DR actually looks like with a 100% crop, shadows pulled up by 4 stops. 5D3 vs D800.
The Sony sensor is so good that most of the time you won't need graduated filters or HDR.

http://www.fredmiranda​.com …dex_controlled-tests.html (external link)

QUOTED IMAGE

QUOTED IMAGE

Please please PLEASE!!! Can you post those original RAW files somewhere so I can play with them????




  
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