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FORUMS Canon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon EOS Digital Cameras 
Thread started 14 Jan 2014 (Tuesday) 07:48
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70D focus issue & blurred pictures

 
Philihase
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Aug 11, 2014 09:18 |  #1246

All this is way over my head but surely the best way of testing the camera is to take pictures of stuff and see how the results are? The problem at the start of the thread is autofocus over 15 or so feet with a lens of f2.8 or under.

Now you are all taking pictures of test charts on a tripod looking down at minimum distances searching for problems. Some of the charts shown show a left AND right bias to where the focus points are which maybe could be explained by tripod movement or the camera not being set at exactly 90 degrees to the chart. What would be interesting would be the results of other cameras in these tests. A comparison if you will of a 5d3 or whatever to the 70d results.

Dont get me wrong the hard work you are puting in is comendable and as I have stated before I think there is a problem with the 70d but I think people are going overboard with the paranoia and searching to see if there is a problem with their new cameras.


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Scoobert
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Aug 11, 2014 09:38 |  #1247

Molybdo42 wrote in post #17088733 (external link)
Surprisingly, it looks normal that the focus areas are way smaller than on a 7D and that some of the focus points aren't fully covered. Do all your focus points work correctly (except for incomplete coverage) ?

In my opinion, your AF sensor still isn't in it's ideal position, but the outer focus points should be much less sensitive to positioning errors than the center one. Also, your sensor seems at least level and centered. So the camera might still be usable. Nevertheless, that new incomplete coverage issue is certainly going to render framing more complicated...

For the moment, until I get my camera back, it looks like the only way to spot a focus issue with fast lenses, is to look for decentered central focus point AF coverage...

Yes all of my points work well. Even without the 100 percent coverage. Which I have never noticed while shooting.




  
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Scoobert
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Aug 11, 2014 09:48 |  #1248

Philihase wrote in post #17088985 (external link)
All this is way over my head but surely the best way of testing the camera is to take pictures of stuff and see how the results are? The problem at the start of the thread is autofocus over 15 or so feet with a lens of f2.8 or under.

Now you are all taking pictures of test charts on a tripod looking down at minimum distances searching for problems. Some of the charts shown show a left AND right bias to where the focus points are which maybe could be explained by tripod movement or the camera not being set at exactly 90 degrees to the chart. What would be interesting would be the results of other cameras in these tests. A comparison if you will of a 5d3 or whatever to the 70d results.

Dont get me wrong the hard work you are puting in is comendable and as I have stated before I think there is a problem with the 70d but I think people are going overboard with the paranoia and searching to see if there is a problem with their new cameras.

Yes. The original problem is different than what Moly is working in. In this case we know his camera is bad is at canon repair. He was just hoping to find a known good 70D to test to compare to where his focus points were against a good 70D focus points.

Also I think his problem is in relation to the 70D center problem. Because before mine was fixed the center point in the view finder was way off in comparison to where the camera was looking. Before repaired my center point was high and left of where the camera thought it was.

But yes you are right the best test we have come up with to spot a bad camera is the one from digital photo rec.

http://digital.photore​commendations.com …center-focus-point-issue/ (external link)




  
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Molybdo42
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Aug 11, 2014 12:49 |  #1249

Scoobert wrote in post #17089020 (external link)
Yes. The original problem is different than what Moly is working in. In this case we know his camera is bad is at canon repair. He was just hoping to find a known good 70D to test to compare to where his focus points were against a good 70D focus points.

Also I think his problem is in relation to the 70D center problem. Because before mine was fixed the center point in the view finder was way off in comparison to where the camera was looking. Before repaired my center point was high and left of where the camera thought it was.

But yes you are right the best test we have come up with to spot a bad camera is the one from digital photo rec.

http://digital.photore​commendations.com …center-focus-point-issue/ (external link)

Well first Scoobert, thanks a lot for the measurements, we now have something to compare !

Now I still think the problem is exactly the same. Taking blurry picture with fast lenses at more than 15 feet is only one symptom of bad sensor alignment and only one way to test it. Unfortunately blurry pictures can have a wide variety of causes (user error, defective lens, defective camera, ...). But taking pictures is the most frequently used one because it is simple to understand.
The test I proposed has two main advantage :
- it will tell you if the camera is OK,
- it works with slow and fast lenses.

Like that anyone with a slow kit lens can test it. But it might still be prone to user error, and it is hard to understand why it should be done.

@ Philihase :
The differences left and right comes mainly from the sensor's misalignment, and of some measurement error. But for having done that test several times on my 70D, I can certify that I obtained identical results, even with different lenses. I also made sure to be at 90° for all my 70D measurements (But I didn't do that for the 60D... I'll try again).

Having misaligned AF sensor is the most plausible cause of the issue reported here, at least that's for the moment the only explanations that verifies all the symptoms observed on many forums (including German ones). Since the sensitive strips on the AF sensor, that are used with fast lenses are further from the center of the sensor, they should be more sensitive to misalignment. And checking where the AF sensitive areas lie is one way to check for that misalignment.

Look here : http://buckscorner.com …90-autofocus-calibration/ (external link)
Some guy had a front focus issue, he had to realign the AF sensor on his D90 to solve it. Unfortunately, you can't do the same repair on a 70D as it doesn't have three screws to level the AF sensor.

Or here : http://leongoodman.tri​pod.com/d70focuspart3.​html (external link)
Some other guy was having focus problems, if you read all his text, he does the same mapping as I did. In his description the AF sensitive areas are represented differently (this cross representation is also more correct than my transparent rectangle), "the red cross represents the shape and size of the sensor which you cannot see". But he solved the issue differently by adjusting the mirrors' angle.

Even here, http://www.bythom.com/​autofocus.htm (external link)
This guy recommends to check were the AF sensitive area lies in the "Do you know where they are ?" section.

So there are at least three links about focus issues, with similar testing method as I did (at least for two of them), and where the solution is to physically adjust either the mirrors or the AF sensor's position.

And finally, I did the same measurement on my (working) 60D (in green the viewfinder's marks, in black the LiveView marks, AF sensitive areas are the red and purple transparent boxes) :

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Thorsten
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Aug 14, 2014 21:38 |  #1250

My new 70D arrived today, and already the first shots showed that focus is all over the place. With my lenses there is a varying degree of front focus, no matter what I do. Those same lenses focus perfectly on both my 5D3 and SL1. I had seen this thread on 70D focus issues and had a cursory look at it before I ordered mine, but I thought surely those issues must be in the past, with the model being one year old already. But apparently not! How wide spread is this issue? I will need to return my camera but I'm not sure if I should get another one.


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Molybdo42
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Aug 15, 2014 06:25 |  #1251

Thorsten wrote in post #17096992 (external link)
My new 70D arrived today, and already the first shots showed that focus is all over the place. With my lenses there is a varying degree of front focus, no matter what I do. Those same lenses focus perfectly on both my 5D3 and SL1. I had seen this thread on 70D focus issues and had a cursory look at it before I ordered mine, but I thought surely those issues must be in the past, with the model being one year old already. But apparently not! How wide spread is this issue? I will need to return my camera but I'm not sure if I should get another one.

Here's what I learned about this issue :
https://photography-on-the.net …?p=17011802&pos​tcount=890
https://photography-on-the.net …p=17068543&post​count=1128
https://photography-on-the.net …p=17049246&post​count=1097
https://photography-on-the.net …p=17055295&post​count=1105
https://photography-on-the.net …p=17046799&post​count=1088
https://photography-on-the.net …380558&highligh​t=70d+poll


We have no idea how spread the issue is. Looking at this poll https://photography-on-the.net …380558&highligh​t=70d+poll , almost 18% of people who did the test with a fast lens had an issue. But given the limited amount of people (65+14=79) you can't know how spread the issue is. Apparently the majority had working camera on first try. Others went through several new bodies without much success (5 for some, 2 in my case).

First thing to try : do the surrounding focus points work ?

If no, you might have a different issue. In that case you should try to clean the electrical contacts on the camera body and lens (even if you think you don't need to). Then second step will be to clean with an airblower (no compressed air !) the AF sensor.

Do note that the position of the AF sensor is above the tripod screw, you can easily see the AF sensor by either flipping the mirrors up with some plastic stick (you'll need steady hands), or by going into the manual sensor cleaning mode :

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If your surrounding focus points work better than the center point, then you might have the same issue as us. Can you try doing the same test as Scoobert ? He sent me his pictures done using that protocol : https://photography-on-the.net …p=17046799&post​count=1088
No need to do the measurement for all focus points, just the center one is enough (4 pictures in total !). Do use a tripod, a LCD screen and the file I provided .It's way easier and will only take a few minutes. This test should give identical results with any lens (fast or slow) and at any distance. Then leave the pictures on http://wikisend.com/ (external link) I'll merge them.

The goal is to see if the focus area of the centerpoint is well centered or not in regard to the liveview marks. Like here :

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Thorsten
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Aug 15, 2014 17:51 |  #1252

Thank you for all this info!! I tried cleaning the contacts and blowing out the chamber, no change. It looks the outer points do focus a bit better but there is still front focus. I tried some microadjustments and numbers needed were between +6 and +12, but it also depended on the subject distance. I've been doing the tests with the LensCal target and two lenses (85/1.8 and 135L). Anyway I'm sending the camera back. Sorry I did not get around to do your more elaborate tests. I got the return label from B+H and wanted to send it on it's way before the weekend already.


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vapore0n
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Aug 18, 2014 15:19 |  #1253

Just to add more confusion.

Just got back from my vacation and am disappointed with the camera. I found that it struggles to get focus on dark objects.
Used my 15-85 lens, which is not a fast lens, but it was very sharp on my T2i. Camera set to auto iso, center point, single shot, etc.
I had a black raven right in front of me, 10 ft away. The camera could not get focus on this bird at all. Took several tries before I could get something decent.

Same thing with some objects that were dark but at a farther distance.

Going to enable focus beep just to know when the camera is ready. That way I can make sure its not user error.




  
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NebrGuy
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Aug 26, 2014 20:25 |  #1254

Molybdo42,

Thanks for the assistance in the private chat. At your suggestion I'm posting comments here to our conversation.

I'm kind of embarrassed to admit that I failed when reading the instructions with my first go of your test. :oops: So that may have contributed to my strange results.

I redid the test and used your suggestion to do the center focal point multiple times. I started in the center. Then I went through all 19 points, hitting the center again in that process. I then did the center a third time after completing the full circuit of AF points. These were all done using f/1.8.

It seems like the overlapping areas was more consistent to the naked eye this time. One thing I noticed when doing the test (not certain this has any bearing) was that I would move the block on the screen back and forth. I would find where I had focus and then back it off until I did not. Sometimes this might be 5 clicks of the keyboard before it would not focus. One would think that one click in the opposite direction would bring it back into focus. Not always. A few times it would take two or three clicks before I regained focus.

I really appreciate your explanation of the focus points in the LIVE VIEW mode vs the focus points in the VIEW FINDER. That made perfect sense and I appreciate your help in getting me to understand it.

The files for your test are:
- 402884
- 401672
- 496112


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NebrGuy
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Aug 26, 2014 20:49 |  #1255

Here is the zip file for the other lens at f/5.6

-481902


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Aug 26, 2014 21:13 |  #1256

NebrGuy wrote in post #17119866 (external link)
Here is the zip file for the other lens at f/5.6

-481902

Where at in Neb guy?




  
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NebrGuy
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Aug 26, 2014 22:46 |  #1257

Lincoln.


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Aug 26, 2014 23:00 |  #1258

NebrGuy wrote in post #17120023 (external link)
Lincoln.

In Omaha/C.B. and been through all this...Holler if you need a hand




  
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Molybdo42
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Aug 27, 2014 14:57 as a reply to  @ Scoobert's post |  #1259

Ok, I've merged the files. This time the results are better. But you gave me underexposed pictures (next time use the liveview histogram to adjust exposure, not spot AF in the viewfinder). Nevertheless, I was still able to analyze the pictures, so no need to remake the measurements.

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Like I said in the PM, the good news is that the sensitive areas are well centered horizontally, the bad is that is seems slightly shifted towards the top.
The center point between slow (f/5.6) and fast lens (f/1.8) is almost identical, so the test can be used to check for misalignment somewhere in the optical path to the AF chip.

You still haven't answered my question : during your everyday camera use, did you notice any AF issue with the centerpoint and fast lenses ? If you don't then it might not be worth sending your camera for repair. In my case, the AF sensor was decentered both vertically and horizontally, maybe that this misalignment is more problematic.

For comparison this is what I got on second repair (compared to me you're a spoiled brat) :

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In the case where you decide to send the camera for repair : I've already tried to mention the AF issue by showing my colored rectangles and speaking of misaligned AF sensor. That approach didn't get my camera fixed on the first two tries, the technician might have though that I got some misaligned focus screen and didn't fix the issue (it even made it worse).
Seeing that some people on Flickr (https://www.flickr.com …/72157639283256​254/page2/ (external link)) report that their camera are repaired, I wouldn't mention the measurements I made, and only report a similar issue as in the first post on the AF issue thread : problem mostly with the center AF point, fast lenses and distant subject.

Take some test shots to leave them on a memory stick. In my case, I found that at night the shadows under streetlights and dark surroundings works great to spot the issue (but select situations not too dim for the AF). I simply took 5-10 pictures for each focus point. Use a tripod, for each focus point recompose the picture to always have the same target in the viewfinder's marks and always turn the focus ring to infinity before snapping the picture. In my case I also noticed some trouble with my focus point N°2, but I thinks it's because my sensitive area is almost outside the VF marks so the camera couldn't focus where I was aiming at.

I'm currently testing that second approach for the third repair, hope this will work... Maybe Canon has issued a service note to their repair centers with precisely those keywords, I don't know...


Lastly, for those who still don't understand the purpose of the test read this :

The main purpose of the test is to see where the camera can focus when using one AF box. But first you need to understand the distinction between the Liveview marks and the viewfinder marks, both are different :
- Liveview marks I'm speaking of the ones visible with the AF Quick mode (the marks are also visible in Digital Photo Professional by pressing Alt+L). These marks show the ideal position and they are perfectly centered on the sensor. In order to see if there’s a misaligned AF sensor you should look at only these marks.
- Viewfinder marks are on the focus screen; unfortunately they are subject to some degree of misalignment but this doesn't impact the AF performance, it only renders framing more complicated, because you have to consider both AF sensor and focus screen misalignment when framing through the viewfinder.

For example, look at my post https://photography-on-the.net …p=17088733&post​count=1248 . I show on the first image on the left : in red Liveview’s marks, in green viewfinder’s marks; on the next picture for Scoobert's camera on the right : In red Liveview’s marks, in black Viewfinder’s marks. You’ll notice some misalignment. Same thing for my 60D (https://photography-on-the.net …p=17089384&post​count=1252). That sort of misalignment is normal but makes framing harder. Canon can adjust it a tiny bit but not much.
You need to understand that this mark alignment is completely separate from the AF misalignment issue. You should in first place care about the misalignment between Liveview marks and the sensitive areas.

How does this impact you in daily usage ? Well, when framing through the viewfinder, if you're trying to focus on some small high contrast subject in front of a busy background (ex: bird in a tree), you'll need to be extra careful on how you frame it. If you use Liveview marks (in AF QUICK mode), and if you put the subject you want to focus on in the right half of point N°3, you'll focus on the background; if you put the object on the left half of the focus point N°3, you'll focus on the subject. I spoke of Liveview marks here, to see how misaligned the focus screen is just follow the “To check the focus screen alignment” instructions : https://photography-on-the.net …p=17046799&post​count=1088

Here's another good example of a situation where that sort of knowledge is useful (taken with my 60D, 50% crop, better picture full res here : http://s1262.photobuck​et.com …ssue_zpsd09fde7​3.jpg.html (external link)) :

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Now compare where the AF sensitive areas are on my 60D :

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To explain the problem :
- on the left , the black shadow on top of the drawing ended barely touching the sensitive zone of the used focus point, this gave me blur.
- but on the right, I just moved a few millimeters to have the black edge inside the sensitive zone, BAM ! sharp picture...

Do note that in practice, when I was aiming through the viewfinder, I had to put the black line on the right edge of the rectangular mark (represented here in green) ; that's because my focus screen is slightly misaligned, in other words, I have some parallax error. Indeed, AF is an art !

Now does everyone understand the purpose of the test ? Good thing is that these AF sensitive areas also happen to give an idea of the AF sensor misalignment.



  
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NebrGuy
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Aug 27, 2014 17:43 |  #1260

Molybdo42 wrote in post #17121212 (external link)
Ok, I've merged the files. This time the results are better. But you gave me underexposed pictures (next time use the liveview histogram to adjust exposure, not spot AF in the viewfinder). Nevertheless, I was still able to analyze the pictures, so no need to remake the measurements.

Like I said in the PM, the good news is that the sensitive areas are well centered horizontally, the bad is that is seems slightly shifted towards the top.
The center point between slow (f/5.6) and fast lens (f/1.8) is almost identical, so the test can be used to check for misalignment somewhere in the optical path to the AF chip.

Thanks for the info. If nothing else is gained, this helps to understand the focusing functions. When I first started reading this thread I was completely confused and you've explained it well. Hopefully, though, this helps on your end given all of the effort you've put into helping with this.

Molybdo42 wrote in post #17121212 (external link)
You still haven't answered my question : during your everyday camera use, did you notice any AF issue with the centerpoint and fast lenses ? If you don't then it might not be worth sending your camera for repair. In my case, the AF sensor was decentered both vertically and horizontally, maybe that this misalignment is more problematic.

My bad. Sorry about that. I haven't been able to put my finger on any focus issues using the center focal point on a fast lens, but honestly I haven't used the nifty fifty much on this camera so have usually been well above f/2.8 most of the time. I've wanted to start looking at some faster primes, but was nervous given all of the concerns over the focusing of fast lenses.

Thanks again for explaining this. It has been a great learning experience.


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Photography-on-the.net Digital Photography Forums is the website for photographers and all who love great photos, camera and post processing techniques, gear talk, discussion and sharing. Professionals, hobbyists, newbies and those who don't even own a camera -- all are welcome regardless of skill, favourite brand, gear, gender or age. Registering and usage is free.