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Thread started 28 Jul 2014 (Monday) 15:27
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Why Canon, when Nikon...

 
TeamSpeed
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Aug 15, 2014 10:05 |  #286

AJSJones wrote in post #17097829 (external link)
But DR is DEFINED and MEASURED by mathematically evaluating the signal to noise ratio in the darkest shadows and calculating, from the data coming from each sensel, the luminance value at which signal rises above the noise and can therefore present real image information. You cannot even specify a DR without first measuring the noise level in the shadows. If you do not use the terms this way, please define sensor DR in terms of how you do see it.

I applaud your patient endurance, but isn't that brick wall starting to give you a concussion? :D


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Aug 15, 2014 10:05 |  #287

:lol: !


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davesrose
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Aug 15, 2014 10:22 |  #288

AJSJones wrote in post #17097829 (external link)
But DR is DEFINED and MEASURED by mathematically evaluating the signal to noise ratio in the darkest shadows and calculating, from the data coming from each sensel, the luminance value at which signal rises above the noise and can therefore present real image information. You cannot even specify a DR without first measuring the noise level in the shadows. If you do not use the terms this way, please define sensor DR in terms of how you do see it.

DR is defined by BOTH the saturation point of the sensel and the noise floor. The Sony sensors may have a better noise floor (whether with sensor and/or A/D converter). I still have yet to see clear data on how they differ at the saturation point. In absolute terms, DR in imaging is about capturing the amount of luminance that's present in a scene. Digital cameras are improving, but still have a ways to go to fully capture the DR the human eye can percieve: within in single shot.


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AJSJones
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Aug 15, 2014 10:24 |  #289

TeamSpeed wrote in post #17097835 (external link)
I applaud your patient endurance, but isn't that brick wall starting to give you a concussion? :D

Soon, the bit I've worn smooth will no longer be useful as a resolution test target, but will be good for measuring noise in a uniform area:D


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DTBaan
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Aug 15, 2014 10:33 as a reply to  @ post 17097829 |  #290

my goodness ppl. I dont care about technical specs and numbers and I don't care if you are a genius.

this is what it means to have DR..

http://youtu.be/NuozUx​h_tOU?t=4m13s (external link)

http://youtu.be/jWvaaH​qQni0?t=2m40s (external link)

on Dave's video, all the things he said about the d800 is great, but at the end he ended up with the 5d3 for his video requirements and needs. his reasons are mentioned in the conclusion of his video. (or was it another video). fast forward, he gave up the 5d3 because of the recent gears that are capable of what he is looking for. he was perfectly fine with canon before until he saw what canon was lacking and what was important to him. but... that's him and you are you.

what I want to say is... if you are fine with your gears, be happy with it and continue using it. if there is something else you seek, there are other brands.

specs can only give you an idea of what the product can do, it may or may not exceed the end users.

just because you did your research and own something it doesn't mean you have the best thing out there that the world has to offer. ok?

I like what I have, and if I don't I will look for something else.




  
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jdizzle
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Aug 15, 2014 10:58 |  #291

DTBaan wrote in post #17097889 (external link)
my goodness ppl. I dont care about technical specs and numbers and I don't care if you are a genius.

this is what it means to have DR..

http://youtu.be/NuozUx​h_tOU?t=4m13s (external link)

http://youtu.be/jWvaaH​qQni0?t=2m40s (external link)

on Dave's video, all the things he said about the d800 is great, but at the end he ended up with the 5d3 for his video requirements and needs. his reasons are mentioned in the conclusion of his video. (or was it another video). fast forward, he gave up the 5d3 because of the recent gears that are capable of what he is looking for. he was perfectly fine with canon before until he saw what canon was lacking and what was important to him. but... that's him and you are you.

what I want to say is... if you are fine with your gears, be happy with it and continue using it. if there is something else you seek, there are other brands.

specs can only give you an idea of what the product can do, it may or may not exceed the end users.

just because you did your research and own something it doesn't mean you have the best thing out there that the world has to offer. ok?

I like what I have, and if I don't I will look for something else.

So much info to take in Baan! ;) If I recall, you own a D800E, right? :)




  
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DTBaan
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Aug 15, 2014 11:04 |  #292

jdizzle wrote in post #17097954 (external link)
So much info to take in Baan! ;) If I recall, you own a D800E, right? :)

heh, just tired of complications. :P

yup, and a mini me, a7r hehe




  
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CRCchemist
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Aug 15, 2014 11:21 |  #293

jdizzle wrote in post #17097449 (external link)
Actually, the ColorChecker Passport is a great tool. And surpisingly enough there are many on this forum who don't understand color management.

I think you just found someone else who doesn't understand color management and uses a default profile.




  
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Aug 15, 2014 16:53 as a reply to  @ post 17097446 |  #294

davesrose wrote in post #17097522 (external link)
No I'm not. My math is quite apparent: scaling a 22MP image up to 36MP, you're randomly adding 40% more pixels. You know, I work with graphic designers and printers. They try to avoid blowing up an image at all costs. A computer algorithm tries to average X number of pixels and then adds more of a similar color. If it averages one pixel of noise, it may amplify it quite a bit.


A poor excuse for the observed differences.
Here is a comparison which avoids the upscaling issue entirely. It is a full sized frame simply downscaled by 4.5x of the output of the 6D and the D800E. Both companies best sensors.

Shadow handling, boosted by 5 stops:
6D:
http://photographylife​.com …014/07/Canon-6D-+5-EV.jpg (external link)

D800E:
http://photographylife​.com …/07/Nikon-D800E-+5-EV.jpg (external link)

http://photographylife​.com/nikon-vs-canon-dynamic-range (external link)


Highlight handling, lowered by 4 stops:

6D:
http://photographylife​.com …2014/07/Canon-6D-4-EV.jpg (external link)

D800E:
http://photographylife​.com …4/07/Nikon-D800E-4-EV.jpg (external link)

http://photographylife​.com/nikon-vs-canon-dynamic-range (external link)


Note that in the highlight comparison noise is not an issue, but the D800E picks up more tonal information.
Though neither camera does an especially great job with the highlights, compare to the colour tones in the shadow example. Digital sensors are poor at differentiating between colour tones in the highlights. This is why shadow performance is so important, because if you have shadows with low noise they are actually usable after post processing. This allows more flexibility in exposure, to preserve the highlights in which far more tonal information is lost.

TeamSpeed wrote in post #17097547 (external link)
https://photography-on-the.net …/showthread.php​?t=1393255

Examples of recovering shadows from a high DR image between different cameras and dual ISO from magic lantern....

Regardless of your opinions, this is how the photographic community looks at DR, how far can they push a high DR scene so that all parts of the image are recoverable and acceptable for viewing. This very type of comparison is occurring in just about every major photo forum. ISO noise is completely tied to this, because at the floor side of the sensor capturing the scene, the amount of random noise added by the electronics plays a part in how far one can push the image, and how acceptable it is.



Dynamic range is bread and butter to landscape and architecture photographers. If you can't get away with boosting the shadows by a good 2 stops without running into noise and quality issues, or if you know you will lose some of the colours in the sky if you expose to the right it is definitely going to change how you shoot and the final result.


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Aug 15, 2014 17:25 |  #295

davesrose wrote in post #17097860 (external link)
DR is defined by BOTH the saturation point of the sensel and the noise floor.

Yes. As noted above, the DR is the ratio of the maximum well capacity (saturation point) to the read noise (noise floor).

davesrose wrote in post #17097860 (external link)
The Sony sensors may have a better noise floor (whether with sensor and/or A/D converter). I still have yet to see clear data on how they differ at the saturation point.

Happy to oblige:D You can see data for minimum read noise and full well capacity (from raw sensel values) , and a table of dynamic range versus ISO, for lots of cameras in this Sensorgen (external link) database. For example, compare the 5D3 and D800. The saturation value (full well capacity) for the D800 is lower than for the Canon because it is a smaller sensel but its capacity is ~25% better per unit area. However, a bigger difference is the read noise. If you would like to see the whole range of DR vs ISO in graph form, you can click on "Measurements" and then on "Dynamic Range" of this comparison (external link). That will show you that as ISO increases, the delta in DR between the two cameras decreases as read noise becomes a smaller percentage of the noise component.

EOS_5D_MkIII (external link)
ISO-Meas. ISO---Read Noise(e-)-Saturation (e-)--DR (stops)
100........80.......33​.1...............67531​...............11.0
200........160.....18.​2...............35189.​..............10.9
Nikon D800 (external link)
100..........74.......​2.7...............4497​2...............14.0
200.........149......3​.6...............24940​............... 12.7


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davesrose
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Aug 15, 2014 17:32 |  #296

Mornnb wrote in post #17098670 (external link)
A poor excuse for the observed differences.
Here is a comparison which avoids the upscaling issue entirely. It is a full sized frame simply downscaled by 4.5x of the output of the 6D and the D800E. Both companies best sensor.

ROTFL! Those shots aren't HDR, and don't even utilize 8bpc color depth. You're still not showing me any examples of recovery of blown highlights in an HDR image. Sony sensors clearly have an advantage with noise handling, but math doesn't lie. The more sensitive your medium, the more you can capture all light intensities. More tonal values are present at the higher stops of light. As long as you're able to record your brightest intensities, you can easily process any detail in the sky. If you're under exposing and relying more on the lower 3 bits, you're then limited to 8 tones of value. Not much to work with: Sony is doing a better job with the noise floor, granted. But all digital sensors have a long way to go to raise the overall DR (and record the whole possible range of a bright daylight situation in just one shot).


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Mornnb
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Aug 15, 2014 17:35 |  #297

AJSJones wrote in post #17098717 (external link)
Yes. As noted above, the DR is the ratio of the maximum well capacity (saturation point) to the read noise (noise floor).

Happy to oblige:D You can see data for minimum read noise and full well capacity (from raw sensel values) , and a table of dynamic range versus ISO, for lots of cameras in this Sensorgen (external link) database. For example, compare the 5D3 and D800. The saturation value (full well capacity) for the D800 is lower than for the Canon because it is a smaller sensel but its capacity is ~25% better per unit area. However, a bigger difference is the read noise. If you would like to see the whole range of DR vs ISO in graph form, you can click on "Measurements" and then on "Dynamic Range" of this comparison (external link). That will show you that as ISO increases, the delta in DR between the two cameras decreases as read noise becomes a smaller percentage of the noise component.

EOS_5D_MkIII (external link)
ISO-Meas. ISO---Read Noise(e-)-Saturation (e-)--DR (stops)
100........80.......33​.1...............67531​...............11.0
200........160.....18.​2...............35189.​..............10.9
Nikon D800 (external link)
100..........74.......​2.7...............4497​2...............14.0
200.........149......3​.6...............24940​............... 12.7

Great post. It is also interesting to note the slight improvement the 6D has made:

EOS_6D
100........80........2​6.8........76606......​..11.5
200........153........​14.6........40302.....​.11.4

1DX
100........80........3​8.2........90367......​..11.2
200........161........​19.1........46820.....​...11.3


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Aug 15, 2014 17:38 |  #298

davesrose wrote in post #17098723 (external link)
ROTFL! Those shots aren't HDR, and don't even utilize 8bpc color depth. You're still not showing me any examples of recovery of blown highlights in an HDR image.

I wasn't intending on showing you examples of 'recovery of blown highlights in an HDR image'. We are not talking about HDR, we are talking about the dynamic range in a single image and what you can achieve before having to resort to labour intensive HDR.


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Aug 15, 2014 17:39 as a reply to  @ AJSJones's post |  #299

5D_MkIII D800 Dynamic Range.
100 11 14
200 10.9 12.7
400 10.7 12
800 10.5 11.2
1600 10.1 10.3
3200 9.5 9.2
6400 8.5 8.3
12800 7.8 7.3
25600 6.7 6.1
51200 5.7
102400 4.8

I rarely shoot IS0 100 so as far as I'm concerned, that awesome dynamic range is useless unless in the studio when I don't really need it.


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davesrose
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Aug 15, 2014 17:40 |  #300

AJSJones wrote in post #17098717 (external link)
Happy to oblige:D You can see data for minimum read noise and full well capacity (from raw sensel values) , and a table of dynamic range versus ISO, for lots of cameras in this Sensorgen (external link) database. For example, compare the 5D3 and D800. The saturation value (full well capacity) for the D800 is lower than for the Canon because it is a smaller sensel but its capacity is ~25% better per unit area. However, a bigger difference is the read noise. If you would like to see the whole range of DR vs ISO in graph form, you can click on "Measurements" and then on "Dynamic Range" of this comparison (external link). That will show you that as ISO increases, the delta in DR between the two cameras decreases as read noise becomes a smaller percentage of the noise component.

Thanks for the info;) So it does appear that the saturation point of the Sony sensor isn't greater then the 5D, it may be a little less. It is better with S/N ratio, though. If anything, I think the values show that you should side to the right with Canon cameras, and more to the left with Nikons.


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