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FORUMS Canon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon EOS Digital Cameras 
Thread started 28 Jul 2014 (Monday) 15:27
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Why Canon, when Nikon...

 
andrikos
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Aug 15, 2014 17:41 |  #301

AJSJones wrote in post #17098717 (external link)
The saturation value (full well capacity) for the D800 is lower than for the Canon because it is a smaller sensel but its capacity is ~25% better per unit area.

I imagine this is the advantage of using a smaller feature size process (500nm vs. 180nm) for Sony.

That means that the minimum metal width is smaller on the Sony process and it "lets" more light into the photodiode hence making it more efficient.,,


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Aug 15, 2014 17:42 |  #302

Mornnb wrote in post #17098731 (external link)
I wasn't intending on showing you examples of 'recovery of blown highlights in an HDR image'. We are not talking about HDR, we are talking about the dynamic range in a single image and what you can achieve before having to resort to labour intensive HDR.

And you're showing a low DR image. There's no labor needed for exposing a color pallet: only exposing correctly.


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Aug 15, 2014 17:44 |  #303

davesrose wrote in post #17098736 (external link)
If anything, I think the values show that you should side to the right with Canon cameras, and more to the left with Nikons.

Well no because the Nikons also do a better job of preserving colour tones in the highlights than the Canon sensors. Effectively, you have a lot more flexibility in exposure with the Exmor Sony sensors.

davesrose wrote in post #17098738 (external link)
And you're not showing a DR image. There's no labor needed for exposing a color pallet: any exposing correctly.

It shows shadow recovery and highlight recovery ability of the cameras. Which is something a photographer makes use of all the time in the real world to handle the dynamic range in a scene.


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Stefano_Viola
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Aug 15, 2014 17:46 |  #304

For all Canon users that asked for some real field test, here's a simple and quick before/after shot that let you understand what you can do with a D800 file ;)
The original picture is not mine, but it is property of user bluesun77 of an italian forum, I just edited the original raw file ;)

Before:

IMAGE: http://www.stefanoviola.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/d800_shadow.jpg

After:

IMAGE: http://www.stefanoviola.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/d800_dynamic_range.jpg

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Aug 15, 2014 17:49 |  #305

davesrose wrote in post #17098736 (external link)
Thanks for the info;) So it does appear that the saturation point of the Sony sensor isn't greater then the 5D, it may be a little less. It is better with S/N ratio, though.

For a given area, the Sony sensor produces 25% more saturation (more electrons) to read out for the same incoming luminance level*. They are just in smaller sensels. In any case, it is NOT the absolute value that is important, it is the ratio of that value to the noise.

*The quantum effciency is 0.56 for the Nikon and 0.49 for the Canon (the number of electrons stored per photon received) and this is a large part of the improved (25%) "electrons per square micron" factor.


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Aug 15, 2014 17:49 |  #306

:D Thanks Stefano_Viola. Great demonstration of how this is not just an issue of technical diagrams and geekery, but is actually an important issue in the real world for producing good photos.


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davesrose
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Aug 15, 2014 17:50 |  #307

Mornnb wrote in post #17098740 (external link)
It shows shadow recovery and highlight recovery ability of the cameras. Which is something a photographer makes use of all the time in the real world to handle the dynamic range in a scene.

No it doesn't. It may show noise handling, but true dynamic range is the area where there's the greatest light intensity. That image's light intensity is well below 8 stops even.


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Aug 15, 2014 17:53 |  #308

Mornnb wrote in post #17098754 (external link)
:D Thanks Stefano_Viola. Great demonstration of how this is not just an issue of technical diagrams and geekery, but is actually an important issue in the real world for producing good photos.

well, it's not the most difficult shot to produce TBH, even canon can easily produce that shot via blending, and it would do a better job if that original were blended as well. The DR should really be reserved for emergency purposes. That looks like a 3-4 stop recover, and I bet at 100%, there's some noise in the recovery.


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Aug 15, 2014 18:00 |  #309

Charlie wrote in post #17098761 (external link)
well, it's not the most difficult shot to produce TBH, even canon can easily produce that shot via blending, and it would do a better job if that original were blended as well. The DR should really be reserved for emergency purposes. That looks like a 3-4 stop recover, and I bet at 100%, there's some noise in the recovery.

3-4 stop recover and the D800 handles it just fine with a very usable level of quality, that's the advantage of the sensor. To achieve the same shot on the 5D Mark III you'd need to resort to graduated filters and/or HDR.

davesrose wrote in post #17098757 (external link)
No it doesn't. It may show noise handling, but true dynamic range is the area where there's the greatest light intensity. That image's light intensity is well below 8 stops even.

There were two examples provided, of severe underexposure with shadows raised by 5 stops. And of overexposure with highlights pulled by 4 stops. It very effectively displays dynamic range as far as the photographer is concerned, and how effective the cameras are at recovering information.


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Aug 15, 2014 18:07 |  #310

Charlie wrote in post #17098761 (external link)
well, it's not the most difficult shot to produce TBH, even canon can easily produce that shot via blending, and it would do a better job if that original were blended as well. The DR should really be reserved for emergency purposes. That looks like a 3-4 stop recover, and I bet at 100%, there's some noise in the recovery.

Charlie of course Canon can achieve the same result...but...as you said only by blending two or more pictures or using nd filters (as I always do).
Now, can you immagine what kind of result you can obtain in PP by exposing correctly the shot I posted, (which is obviously underexposed) or by using correctly a set of nd filters?
And...shooting one single exposure instead of a bracketed sequence that needs to be processed it's another great advantage I would not underestimate ;)


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Aug 15, 2014 18:11 |  #311

Mornnb wrote in post #17098790 (external link)
There were two examples provided, of severe underexposure with shadows raised by 5 stops. And of overexposure with highlights pulled by 4 stops. It very effectively displays dynamic range as far as the photographer is concerned, and how effective the cameras are at recovering information.

All those examples are from a scene that has less then 8 stops of light. If a photographer misses exposure for such a low DR scene, and needs to process a RAW, then they need to learn about exposure.

The above before and after HDR scene still seems easily managable as a single shot for any modern DSLR. I'd overexpose a little more (still don't see any major blown highlights in the light area). This gives me more latitude in processing shadows with my Canon: with a Nikon your noise floor is better you and can do more pushing of shadows with that initial exposure.


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Aug 15, 2014 18:36 |  #312

andrikos wrote in post #17098737 (external link)
I imagine this is the advantage of using a smaller feature size process (500nm vs. 180nm) for Sony.

That means that the minimum metal width is smaller on the Sony process and it "lets" more light into the photodiode hence making it more efficient.,,

Canon's dynamic range is limited by read noise. As we've already seen in this thread Canon sensors actually pick up a greater range of saturation than the Sony Exmor. Why is this the case? Because Canon has superior photodiodes but greatly inferior amplification and ADC circuitry that adds a lot more noise than the Sony equivalents. The noise in the shadows is largely amplification and digital conversion artefacts.
Sony is doing the ADC on sensor and Sony has a couple of on sensor analog to digital converter patents that Canon couldn't implement even if they wanted to. Canon is currently doing ADC off sensor in the Digic 5+ chip, which means more noise is being picked up along analog electronic pathways. This explains the dynamic range difference.


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Aug 15, 2014 18:54 |  #313

davesrose wrote in post #17098812 (external link)
All those examples are from a scene that has less then 8 stops of light. If a photographer misses exposure for such a low DR scene, and needs to process a RAW, then they need to learn about exposure.

The above before and after HDR scene still seems easily managable as a single shot for any modern DSLR. I'd overexpose a little more (still don't see any major blown highlights in the light area). This gives me more latitude in processing shadows with my Canon: with a Nikon your noise floor is better you and can do more pushing of shadows with that initial exposure.

on the flip side, you can should really ETTR even with the sony sensor. No need to be sloppy just for the sake of rubbing it in ;)


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Aug 15, 2014 19:01 |  #314

Charlie wrote in post #17098858 (external link)
on the flip side, you can should really ETTR even with the sony sensor. No need to be sloppy just for the sake of rubbing it in ;)

Right:D


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Aug 15, 2014 19:07 |  #315

Mornnb wrote in post #17098832 (external link)
Canon's dynamic range is limited by read noise. As we've already seen in this thread Canon sensors actually pick up a greater range of saturation than the Sony Exmor. Why is this the case? Because Canon has superior photodiodes but greatly inferior amplification and ADC circuitry that adds a lot more noise than the Sony equivalents. The noise in the shadows is largely amplification and digital conversion artefacts.
Sony is doing the ADC on sensor and Sony has a couple of on sensor analog to digital converter patents that Canon couldn't implement even if they wanted to. Canon is currently doing ADC off sensor in the Digic 5+ chip, which means more noise is being picked up along analog electronic pathways. This explains the dynamic range difference.

Not sure why you're replying to my post.
What you're saying has nothing to do with my point.


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