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Thread started 28 Jul 2014 (Monday) 15:27
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Why Canon, when Nikon...

 
CRCchemist
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Aug 18, 2014 03:03 |  #376

AJSJones wrote in post #17102620 (external link)
Very helpful comment, you think? If your p*nis is so large, please just tell us the correct defintion of sensor dynamic range and put us out of our misery:D?

I'll be honest. I photograph professionally and I don't have time to fight about this crap, because I'm too busy making money with the 5D III and 5D II bodies I have. The clients don't seem to care about this junk. Only photographers talk about it with other photographers. Meanwhile, those of us who don't care are being booked every weekend and throughout the week for work and making a good living doing this.

Sorry you guys haven't figured out what's really important yet.




  
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Aug 18, 2014 03:52 as a reply to  @ CRCchemist's post |  #377

I predict a thread closure.

Too many hand bags being swung, too many dummies being spat out.


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Aug 18, 2014 04:14 |  #378

CRCchemist wrote in post #17102770 (external link)
I'll be honest. I photograph professionally and I don't have time to fight about this crap, because I'm too busy making money with the 5D III and 5D II bodies I have. The clients don't seem to care about this junk. Only photographers talk about it with other photographers. Meanwhile, those of us who don't care are being booked every weekend and throughout the week for work and making a good living doing this.

Sorry you guys haven't figured out what's really important yet.

You just don't understand nerds. This argument is our idea of a fun Sunday night.


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pwm2
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Aug 18, 2014 04:14 |  #379

davesrose wrote in post #17102243 (external link)
Just to get back to this...since I also have a medical background...when you factor accommodation, the eye does have around 20 stops of light accuity. The retina by itself isn't even capable of 8 stops...but with all reasons already mentioned (accomodation, scanning, etc), the accepted dynamic range of human vision is around 20 stops.

But still - the eye can't take a snapshot with 20 stops of dynamic range.
And if you need to adjust "exposure" then the camera can do way better.

The main thing that fascinates me about human vision is our two photoreceptors: they're perfectly distributed to get color details in natural daylight vs tonal detail at night. Because digital systems are so different, they have to have a WB and an extended dynamic range.

The camera does not have a bigger need for WB than the eyes. The need for WB comes because we want to freeze a moment in time, and view the photo at a later time in different light. So we normalize the WB of our prints to some assumed color temperature at the location where we will later view the photos. Our brain performs the WB based on the surrounding light - not based on the colors on the photo you hold in your hands.

If you isolate us in a cinema with enough of our image field covered by the projection and enough color gamut and dynamic range, then you can get enough immersion that our brain will start to do WB as it views the capturd image. But that doesn't happen when you view a photo on your monitor or a printed photo.

So the need for WB isn't because the technology of a camera can't keep up with the eye but because the presentation (your paper print) can't keep up with the reality.


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Aug 18, 2014 04:24 |  #380

quickben wrote in post #17102792 (external link)
I predict a thread closure.

Too many hand bags being swung, too many dummies being spat out.

Threads get closed due to some of the comments being made recently and not because some technical terms being discussed in a civil manner. That being said, some haven't learned that a certain individual seems to be one of those guys that has to have the last word, even when that last word is incorrect. If he hasn't picked what DR is by now, it isn't going to happen.


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Aug 18, 2014 04:24 |  #381

pwm2 wrote in post #17102719 (external link)
Note that the D800 seems to have extremely strong antialiasing filter so it is unable to take advantage of the 36MP of the sensor and then often gets a lower usable resolution than the 5D3 - if you switch to the D800E then you see the Nikon lenses doing way better.

Ok let's take a look at the numbers for the D800e. The Zeiss Otus scores 29 MPix on the D800 and 33MPix on the D800e.
Here's a comparison with the Sigma 35mm
5D Mark III. 19MPix.
D800. 23MPix.
D800e. 30MPix.

Another thing to consider is that a 70D shows that lots of the Canon lenses can do way better but Canon have no full-format sensor with really 30-40 MP.

The 24-70mm II scores 18MPix on the 5D3 compared to Nikon's 24-70mm which scores a 15Mpix on Nikon's similar resolution D600. Imagine what the 24-70mm Mark II could do on a 36MP body. Given it performs similar to the Sigma 35 on Canon bodies one would expect near 30MPix performance.


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pwm2
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Aug 18, 2014 04:26 |  #382

CRCchemist wrote in post #17102770 (external link)
I'll be honest. I photograph professionally and I don't have time to fight about this crap, because I'm too busy making money with the 5D III and 5D II bodies I have. The clients don't seem to care about this junk. Only photographers talk about it with other photographers. Meanwhile, those of us who don't care are being booked every weekend and throughout the week for work and making a good living doing this.

Sorry you guys haven't figured out what's really important yet.

Scroll up a bit and check what subforum you are reading. "Equipment Talk section. This is expected to be talk about the equipment. So people worrying about making money with their cameras must have landed wrong if they expect other contents from these threads.


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pwm2
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Aug 18, 2014 05:53 |  #383

A note here about computer-generated images.

A ray tracer normally produce values where value 1.0 is white. But it may then possibly store the rendered results where "max" might be 4 or 8 or 16 or maybe even a floating point value going to 10^38 or similar. So while it has a defined "white", it may then have a number of stops of highlight recovery support.

Most people who care about the dynamic range do not use their cameras in a way where they leave several stops of extra sensor range above white. We would just consider that an underexposed image losing IQ. So we care about the total distance between noise floor and clipping - the DR quotient - and then adjust the exposure to get us as close we can to highlight clipping. We don't care about any absolute values for the noise floor or the absolute exposure level for clipping - but the range covered by that usable DR window.

So there is a big difference between camera sensors and computer-generated images.


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davesrose
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Aug 18, 2014 06:11 |  #384

pwm2 wrote in post #17102813 (external link)
The camera does not have a bigger need for WB than the eyes. The need for WB comes because we want to freeze a moment in time, and view the photo at a later time in different light. So we normalize the WB of our prints to some assumed color temperature at the location where we will later view the photos. Our brain performs the WB based on the surrounding light - not based on the colors on the photo you hold in your hands.

No, our brains don't perform WB: our eyes sense different color temperatures based on light intensity of daylight, and whether cone photoreceptors are being active. Cameras are completely different technologies.

If some on here want to believe DR in photography is only the SNR ratio of the sensor, so be it. Even though the absolute definition for imagery is the ratio between highest intensity of light (or tone) vs lowest, you're free to believe otherwise.


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Aug 18, 2014 07:01 |  #385

davesrose wrote in post #17102934 (external link)
No, our brains don't perform WB: our eyes sense different color temperatures based on light intensity of daylight, and whether cone photoreceptors are being active. Cameras are completely different technologies.

If some on here want to believe DR in photography is only the SNR ratio of the sensor, so be it. Even though the absolute definition for imagery is the ratio between highest intensity of light (or tone) vs lowest, you're free to believe otherwise.

The eyes measures color. But the main part of our color constancy ability happens in the cortex, where the perceived color gets normalized both based on total intensity of the different wavelengths and based on knowledge of expected colors for different subjects.

So it's a bit like having a camera that knows the color of grass, roses, rust, ... and then adaptively calibrates the color channels to match the expected colors. Our cameras right now can't add that step. They can only try to measure the relations between color channels.

And this is why the brain fails with a printed photo. It picks up stimuli from the room and then expects the print to also use the same color temperature as the other subjects in the room. Don't let the eyes see the room, and then the brain can manage to perform WB of the print. Seeing both the room and the print, the brain notices when "white" has a different color temperature than "white" in the room.

And this ability of your brain to adapt allows you to add colored filters in front of your eyes and after a while adapt your color perception to reduce the effect of the color filters - and then you instead gets surprised by the results when you remove the color filters.

In the end, the cortex is able to perform quite a lot if interesting things, like the McCollough effect where you can get long-time effects after having seen colored patterns. And if you worked for a long time with the old-time green monitors you could then when you went out suddenly see white cars as pink. So in the end, the brain isn't flawless.

So once more - our cameras can match what our eyes can do. But they can't present the resulting image in a way that behaves the same as our cortex would expect the real nature to behave.


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davesrose
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Aug 18, 2014 07:29 |  #386

pwm2 wrote in post #17102970 (external link)
The eyes measures color. But the main part of our color constancy ability happens in the cortex, where the perceived color gets normalized both based on total intensity of the different wavelengths and based on knowledge of expected colors for different subjects.

Our eyes have two types of photoreceptors, and how we perceive light has more to do with which photoreceptors are active. Cameras have no such system, and we have to adjust their color temperature to match our perceived one. Dimming or using different ambient light also may change our perceptions of color....but again, cameras are competely different technology.


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Aug 18, 2014 08:03 as a reply to  @ davesrose's post |  #387

So are Canon's CMOS design still pretty much like this whitepaper?

http://dougkerr.net …icles/CMOS-APS_Sensor.pdf (external link)

If so, what has Sony done to their sensors for Nikon that has changed this so that they contribute less of a noise floor to the overall data? Is that they have put the ADC right at the pixel or column level?

http://image-sensors-world.blogspot.com …-column-parallel-adc.html (external link)

If so, how does ISO work in the middle of all this?


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Aug 18, 2014 09:47 |  #388

quickben wrote in post #17102792 (external link)
I predict a thread closure.

Too many hand bags being swung, too many dummies being spat out.

Where is the title fairy!!! LMFAOOO :lol::lol::lol:


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pwm2
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Aug 18, 2014 09:49 |  #389

davesrose wrote in post #17102999 (external link)
Our eyes have two types of photoreceptors, and how we perceive light has more to do with which photoreceptors are active. Cameras have no such system, and we have to adjust their color temperature to match our perceived one. Dimming or using different ambient light also may change our perceptions of color....but again, cameras are competely different technology.

Our two sets of receptors are more or less irrelevant to our brains auto-calibration of color perception. The retina is involved, but the main part is our cortex.

They are more intended to produce a low-resolution, light-sensitive, color-less image with wide viewing angle to let us detect movements etc and stay alive or spot game to hunt and a second set able to resolve high-resolution color but in a very, very narrow angle. This limits the amount of brain processing since we get good quality only where we look while we still detect things happening outside the primary area of focus.

The brain fakes a wide view of a large dynamic range by turning the eyes and adapting the exposure based on where you focus. Our cameras can compete with our eyes. But they can't compete with our brain.

A camera has no need to capture the good quality in an extremely narrow angle and then capture low-resolution monochrome for the rest of the view to spot peripherial movements. And it doesn't have much reason to emulate monochrome night vision either unless you want extreme light-sensitivity like when capturing stars way darker than what our eyes can see.

Since the camera is intended to capture a still image of a scene, it must capture the full scene so the static paper can then let us to look at the different objects on the print. The print can't do any adjustments as you turn your eyes.

So once more - the WB you do when you use a camera isn't because of a limitation of the camera. And it isn't because the eyes does something magic. It's because the camera gives us a static image to view when capturing in one ambient light situation, while our brain makes a different assumtion when later viewing the print in a different ambient light situation. If you did view in the same ambient light as the image was captured, then the camera wouldn't need the WB, because the photo captured would be warm when our brain sees an environment where it expects warm tones. And the captured image would be cold when our brain expects cold colors based on the environment.


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Aug 18, 2014 09:51 |  #390

Mornnb wrote in post #17102829 (external link)
Ok let's take a look at the numbers for the D800e. The Zeiss Otus scores 29 MPix on the D800 and 33MPix on the D800e.
Here's a comparison with the Sigma 35mm
5D Mark III. 19MPix.
D800. 23MPix.
D800e. 30MPix.

The 24-70mm II scores 18MPix on the 5D3 compared to Nikon's 24-70mm which scores a 15Mpix on Nikon's similar resolution D600. Imagine what the 24-70mm Mark II could do on a 36MP body. Given it performs similar to the Sigma 35 on Canon bodies one would expect near 30MPix performance.

I agree with this. I used my Sigma 35 Art on a 5dmkIII since the sigma launched. I have been using the same sigma lens on an A7r for the last month and WOW! Seriously i thought it was a great lens on the 5dmkIII but on the A7r it is a whole different beast.


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