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FORUMS News & Rumors Camera Rumors and Predictions 
Thread started 07 Aug 2014 (Thursday) 17:32
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My thoughts on the 7D mkII and Canon Rumors

 
Geordie ­ Amanda
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Aug 22, 2014 17:16 |  #196

Mark0159 wrote in post #17112149 (external link)
if your good then you don't need a single AF point.

However the advantages lots of AF points can give you is being able to group them so you can get better tracking. if the specs are true then I would hope that canon puts some nice features to go with that many AF points. Inlcuding groups. If they are all cross type as well, that should mean the outer edges are just as good as the centre AF when it comes to tracking.

yep good to see you are basing your option on real world results rather than a single post about specs that may or may not be true. :rolleyes:

Well this is a rumour thread so we don't have anything else to go on.


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Geordie ­ Amanda
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Aug 22, 2014 17:20 |  #197

kfreels wrote in post #17112152 (external link)
Kind of.

They're a bit overdue for an improved sensor. A key to an improved sensor would be to move to a .18 fab process which they actually have the ability to do. They just have to choose to do it. There's a lot of people willing to jump ship to Sony and Nikon because of the difference in DR and that's just going to grow in the future of they don't raise the bar.

The 7D is already thought of as a test-bed for new stuff. So it would also be a natural place for a new sensor design to make its debut.

Finally, they've been releasing a lot of patents lately regarding a multi-layer sensor that solves some of the issues with the Foveon that Sigma uses. So a lot of people were expecting a multi-layer sensor.

Overall, it just seems like the right time and the right camera. But it's always possible they're working on a new sensor and just couldn't get it where they wanted it so they had to put it off till the next camera....or the one after.

There's no certainty that it won't be a multi-layer sensor. The most recent rumor says no but the previous said yes. So who really knows? And really, I don't think it matters as long as there's a significant improvement to noise and shadow and highlight detail.

Would this mean that if Canon (and before anyone starts preaching, I realise this is all supposition) have the means and method to make a brave new sensor with superior technology then they have just driven themselves up a blind alley if the 7DI has only a small improvement in it's own new sensor. Image the next 70D or similar suddenly coming out with a sensor that was noticeably better than it's big brother the 7DII. People would go mad.


Call me Amanda please :)

  
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Mark0159
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Aug 22, 2014 17:23 |  #198

Geordie Amanda wrote in post #17112155 (external link)
Well this is a rumour thread so we don't have anything else to go on.

then you wait and see. a term has been used for the cmos which would many anything. Most people believe it's going to have a lack of AA filter, it could mean a new sensor or it could mean little gremlins are inside applying usm to each pixel.

currently these are just unconfirmed specs on a camera everyone is waiting for.


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pwm2
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Aug 22, 2014 17:42 |  #199

Geordie Amanda wrote in post #17112153 (external link)
I wanted a better sensor, what's that got to do with more MP?

The only "fact" presented there was the MP.
And since you were unhappy, I then wondered if it was because of the MP.
Because you can't have been unhappy about the IQ since there were no text indicating anything that there wouldn't be improvements to the sensor.


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soccersnaps
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Aug 22, 2014 18:04 |  #200

Could someone please explain this multi-layer sensor thing to me and its advantages?

is it 3 layers, 1 per colour, red, blue, green ?


there are 3 types of people in this world, those that can count and those that can't

  
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kfreels
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Aug 22, 2014 18:15 |  #201

Geordie Amanda wrote in post #17112159 (external link)
Would this mean that if Canon (and before anyone starts preaching, I realise this is all supposition) have the means and method to make a brave new sensor with superior technology then they have just driven themselves up a blind alley if the 7DI has only a small improvement in it's own new sensor. Image the next 70D or similar suddenly coming out with a sensor that was noticeably better than it's big brother the 7DII. People would go mad.

Not necessarily. The current sensor tech and design has been refined over many years but they've probably come to the point where they just can't take it much further. A totally new design from scratch would be necessary to make a significant change and it would be based on a new fab process as well. You can go down a lot of blind alleys and you can make a lot of mistakes along the way on such a quest. And you have to avoid other company patents along the way. You can come up with something that looks good on paper, do some basic testing, get it where it seems like it works, then stick it in a prototype for a few months and then find a serious flaw that sends you back to the drawing board. It's always possible that a year ago they had one they thought was ready and had to pull it because it wasn't.

A


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Canon 7D and a bunch of other stuff

  
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Geordie ­ Amanda
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Aug 22, 2014 18:39 |  #202

pwm2 wrote in post #17112191 (external link)
The only "fact" presented there was the MP.
And since you were unhappy, I then wondered if it was because of the MP.
Because you can't have been unhappy about the IQ since there were no text indicating anything that there wouldn't be improvements to the sensor.

Well there was mention of 'fine detail' sensor whatever that is? I hoped for better DR and noise and the clarification of the new sensor type being incorrect, I hung my head a little and sighed gently. I am happy with my current MP count and if CR are right, I suspect I will still be happy with my 7D as there doesn't seem to be much point for me to buy a new mkII. Time (and reviews) will tell, as ever.


Call me Amanda please :)

  
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Geordie ­ Amanda
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Aug 22, 2014 18:41 |  #203

kfreels wrote in post #17112233 (external link)
Not necessarily. The current sensor tech and design has been refined over many years but they've probably come to the point where they just can't take it much further. A totally new design from scratch would be necessary to make a significant change and it would be based on a new fab process as well. You can go down a lot of blind alleys and you can make a lot of mistakes along the way on such a quest. And you have to avoid other company patents along the way. You can come up with something that looks good on paper, do some basic testing, get it where it seems like it works, then stick it in a prototype for a few months and then find a serious flaw that sends you back to the drawing board. It's always possible that a year ago they had one they thought was ready and had to pull it because it wasn't.

A

So it is quite possible, that this sensor will be all that Canon has left in the tank, so to speak. Lets hope it's a thing of greatness then :)


Call me Amanda please :)

  
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FEChariot
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Aug 22, 2014 18:48 |  #204

kfreels wrote in post #17112116 (external link)
I think the one thing that's been unanimous about what people want from a 7D replacement is improved noise and DR. IF this is a correct list, the "fine detail" sensor is a curious thing. To me, it hints at something new.

ISO 16,000 as a top native ISO is 1 1/3 stop improvement. My ISO 3200 shots looking like my ISO 1250 shots would be a welcome thing. And that's not to say they didn't raise the bar for their acceptable IQ at each ISO either. And "Fine detail" to me says that in any such shot, there would be more detail. But which detail? Who knows? Is it simply an improved or removed AA filter? Is it more shadow and highlight detail? Either way calling it a "fine detail" sensor does sound like something new. The 70D didn't get such a name. The DR wouldn't show up on such a simple spec list. I' really don't see how this list tells anyone enough information to make a buying decision. We'll just have to wait and see.

Just because they are raising the top end of ISO, doesn't mean it will be usable. We aren't going to get a 1-1/3rd stop improvement. That would put the performance 1/3 to 2/3rds stop below that of the 6D. Not going to happen.

Don't get me wrong, if the ISO improvement is that close to the 6D, I am all over it and I will upgrade. It would be much less expensive for me to upgrade from 7D to 7D2 then to buy a FF body and change over all my crop lenses to FF ones, so I'd love it. I just don't think it's going to be much if any improvemt over the 70D.


Canon 7D/350D, Σ17-50/2.8 OS, 18-55IS, 24-105/4 L IS, Σ30/1.4 EX, 50/1.8, C50/1.4, 55-250IS, 60/2.8, 70-200/4 L IS, 85/1.8, 100/2.8 IS L, 135/2 L 580EX II, 430EX II * 2, 270EX II.

  
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kfreels
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Aug 22, 2014 19:50 |  #205

FEChariot wrote in post #17112270 (external link)
Just because they are raising the top end of ISO, doesn't mean it will be usable. We aren't going to get a 1-1/3rd stop improvement. That would put the performance 1/3 to 2/3rds stop below that of the 6D. Not going to happen.

Why not? The 6D is perhaps a less expensive camera than this will be and sports a full frame sensor. And the new tech when applied to, suppose a 6DII, should yield a similar improvement.

The fact is that they need to make some significant improvements and they can't just not do it because it might be too close to another camera. If that were the case, they could never make such an improvement. I suppose they could start from the top down but then we'd be waiting for the next 1D which I suspect is still a ways out and isn't their top seller anyways.


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FEChariot
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Aug 22, 2014 21:00 |  #206

kfreels wrote in post #17112349 (external link)
Why not? The 6D is perhaps a less expensive camera than this will be and sports a full frame sensor. And the new tech when applied to, suppose a 6DII, should yield a similar improvement.

The fact is that they need to make some significant improvements and they can't just not do it because it might be too close to another camera. If that were the case, they could never make such an improvement. I suppose they could start from the top down but then we'd be waiting for the next 1D which I suspect is still a ways out and isn't their top seller anyways.

Trust me, I'd love to be wrong there but I still think it's going to be about as good as the 70D.

What do you all make of the lens electronic MF? I was thinking it was two push buttons on the body to focus in and out: ie smooth focus driver for video work. However the guys on the CR forum are talking about automatic MFA.


Canon 7D/350D, Σ17-50/2.8 OS, 18-55IS, 24-105/4 L IS, Σ30/1.4 EX, 50/1.8, C50/1.4, 55-250IS, 60/2.8, 70-200/4 L IS, 85/1.8, 100/2.8 IS L, 135/2 L 580EX II, 430EX II * 2, 270EX II.

  
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rjharris
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Aug 22, 2014 21:08 |  #207

FEChariot wrote in post #17112449 (external link)
Trust me, I'd love to be wrong there but I still think it's going to be about as good as the 70D.

What do you all make of the lens electronic MF? I was thinking it was two push buttons on the body to focus in and out: ie smooth focus driver for video work. However the guys on the CR forum are talking about automatic MFA.


I think we're going to be pleasantly surprised if/when it comes out. I like the specs just not enough information on the new sensor technology but that's to be expected if they're trying to keep it under wraps. I'm thinking 2 stops better ISO noise with the new sensor and the double digic 6's. The Digic 6 probably gives a half step just to better technology there from what I've heard or been reading the last several months. Anything less and I don't think many will buy it and Canon has to know that.




  
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Shadowblade
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Aug 22, 2014 23:31 |  #208

The AF system sounds promising. But the real question is the sensor - Canon can hardly afford to run a model for the next three years with a sensor that underperforms what Nikon/Sony crop sensors were doing in 2010.




  
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FEChariot
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Aug 23, 2014 00:06 |  #209

rjharris wrote in post #17112461 (external link)
I think we're going to be pleasantly surprised if/when it comes out. I like the specs just not enough information on the new sensor technology but that's to be expected if they're trying to keep it under wraps. I'm thinking 2 stops better ISO noise with the new sensor and the double digic 6's. The Digic 6 probably gives a half step just to better technology there from what I've heard or been reading the last several months. Anything less and I don't think many will buy it and Canon has to know that.

You would have to show me from a site like TDP where Bryan has the ISO crop comparison or a similar site but I don't think there has ever been a 2 stop improvement in ISO performance from a direct replacement model. And it certainly has not been from crop bodies. The gains in FF bodies have made the largest of gain from direct replacements.

And I am not talking about just what is available at the top. The top 3200 on a 5Dc is much cleaner than the top end of 25K on a 5D2. It's actually cleaner than 12k.


Canon 7D/350D, Σ17-50/2.8 OS, 18-55IS, 24-105/4 L IS, Σ30/1.4 EX, 50/1.8, C50/1.4, 55-250IS, 60/2.8, 70-200/4 L IS, 85/1.8, 100/2.8 IS L, 135/2 L 580EX II, 430EX II * 2, 270EX II.

  
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pwm2
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Aug 23, 2014 10:16 |  #210

FEChariot wrote in post #17112615 (external link)
You would have to show me from a site like TDP where Bryan has the ISO crop comparison or a similar site but I don't think there has ever been a 2 stop improvement in ISO performance from a direct replacement model. And it certainly has not been from crop bodies. The gains in FF bodies have made the largest of gain from direct replacements.

And I am not talking about just what is available at the top. The top 3200 on a 5Dc is much cleaner than the top end of 25K on a 5D2. It's actually cleaner than 12k.

Note that "stops of improvement" are a relative measure. So it's applicable to different sensor sizes. So nothing stopping it from happening in a P&S or a APS-C or medium-format camera.

But big improvements tends to happen from the high-end first, because these buyers are spending more time reading the datasheets or comparing IQ between different gear, even if a significant part of the bulk income comes from lower-end gear because of the much larger volume.

So - a drastically improved sensor would be more likely to happen in a 5D3 or 1Dx replacement than in a 70D replacement. But the 7D really is a body that has been waiting a long time for a replacement and it is the highest-end APS-C body Canon has. Not only that - given the volume of sold 7D bodies, it has been an extremely important product. In short - I don't think Canon would see any reason to hold back on what sensor improvements they may put in a 7D replacement. I'm pretty sure they would add the best they can add, and later worry about what release dates they could have for follow-up full-frame upgrades.


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