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Thread started 30 Aug 2014 (Saturday) 07:47
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6D or Leica M240 Switch thoughts

 
Charlie
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Aug 31, 2014 09:57 |  #31

MCTuomey wrote in post #17127610 (external link)
Very small? Charlie, the zeiss FE 55 f/1.8 is twice the size of a Lux 50 and that's before you put that large zeiss hood on it. The FE 35 f/2.8 is smaller, but slower and not equivalent in performance to the 55. OP has said AF, electronic aperture, etc don't matter. And I suspect his need for a tele zoom is receding ...

OP has spent two hours in a Leica store fondling the M240. Case closed, he's going Wetzlar ;)

it's not much bigger, weighs less, and I think the flange distance attributes to the difference.

here's a comparison: http://3d-kraft.com …camerasandlense​s&Itemid=2 (external link)

in either scenario, he can adapt it for fairly cheap.

the zeiss totally crushes the leica in optics, it's not even funny.


Sony A7riii/A9 - FE 12-24/4 - FE 24-240 - SY 24/2.8 - FE 28/2 - FE 35/2.8 - FE 50/1.8 - FE 85/1.8 - EF 135/1.8 Art - F 600/5.6 - CZ 100-300 - Astro Rok 14/2.8 - Tamron 17-28/2.8 - 28-75/2.8 RXD, 70-200/2.8 VC

  
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MCTuomey
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Aug 31, 2014 14:10 |  #32

Charlie wrote in post #17127612 (external link)
well you gotta admit, damn leica glass is beautiful, damn work of art.

+1 and a whole lot of fun to use too


mike

a couple of canon bodies and a few good lenses

https://www.flickr.com​/photos/9176501@N08/ (external link)

  
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MCTuomey
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Aug 31, 2014 14:35 |  #33

Here's a more wide-ranging discussion of 50s on the A7, if the OP cares.

http://www.fredmiranda​.com/forum/topic/12515​75/1 (external link)

Put a hood on that 55 and you've got the same problem OP is trying to avoid with his dSLR while shooting in public places, that's my point, not weight in grams or length/girth in mm. An A7 + hooded 55 looks nearly as large as the OP's 6D + zoom, at a glance. A rangefinder with a hooded 50 Cron or Lux looks much less imposing, in my opinion. The Leica looks vaguely retro. Some people think it's an old film camera, and often say so, in my experience.

Fully agree that the FE 55 is superb technically, but (1) it's nearly a stop slower than the f/1.4 and (2) I put less stock in assessments of native lenses on the A7/A7r when compared to adapted glass, especially at 50mm and wide focal lengths, than you do. Put that Lux on a Leica M and I am pretty sure it'll render beautifully if the shooter does his or her job, regardless how the MTF charts read or your opinion re which lens "crushes" the other. Any of the lenses mentioned in the article you cite are fully capable of excellent imaging.

Cheap adapters, btw, are just that. Adapting good glass demands good adapters. A Novoflex is $400, and is reputed to have little copy variation, for example.

Charlie wrote in post #17127641 (external link)
it's not much bigger, weighs less, and I think the flange distance attributes to the difference.

here's a comparison: http://3d-kraft.com …camerasandlense​s&Itemid=2 (external link)

in either scenario, he can adapt it for fairly cheap.

the zeiss totally crushes the leica in optics, it's not even funny.


mike

a couple of canon bodies and a few good lenses

https://www.flickr.com​/photos/9176501@N08/ (external link)

  
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Mornnb
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Aug 31, 2014 16:51 |  #34

Charlie wrote in post #17127641 (external link)
it's not much bigger, weighs less, and I think the flange distance attributes to the difference.

here's a comparison: http://3d-kraft.com …camerasandlense​s&Itemid=2 (external link)

in either scenario, he can adapt it for fairly cheap.

the zeiss totally crushes the leica in optics, it's not even funny.

They are not testing the Leica APO 50mm f/2, which is Leica's best 50mm.

Note the results of this optical bench test by Lens Rental, the Leica APO comes out on top, with the Sigma 50mm Art second and the Zeiss Otus 3rd.

IMAGE: http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/media/2014/05/f22.jpg
http://www.lensrentals​.com …r-50mm-lenses-version-0-7 (external link)

Canon 5D Mark III - Leica M240
EF 16-35mm F/4 IS L - EF 14mm f/2.8 L II - - EF 17mm TS-E L - EF 24-70mm f/2.8 L II - EF 70-200mm IS II f/2.8 L - Sigma 35mm f/1.4 Art - Sigma 85mm f/1.4 EX
Voigtlander 15mm III - 28mm Elmarit-M ASPH - 35mm f/1.4 Summilux-M FLE - 50mm f/1.4 Summilux-M ASPH
500px (external link)

  
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Gobeatty
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Aug 31, 2014 18:57 |  #35

"actually, if i had a 6D, i'd stick it in a bag with an 85/1.8 and a 35/2 IS. that'd be my everywhere kit. stealthy as my leica, lighter, and only slightly bigger. i may just do that ... for less than the price of my least expensive Leica lens."

This is me right now. I also picked up a 50 1.8 used for $80 including filter. I leave the house with 6D + 35 f2 a lot and leave the rest home. And the 6D's 20mp crops well so the 35f2 is rather versatile.

Regarding the 70-200 2.8, you need it or you don't. With the Leica setup you wouldn't have the equivalent available. So, to me, the Big White is a Red Herring. You don't have to walk out of the house with it on your 6D unless you need it, in which case you would be out of luck with the Leica.

For tele zoom, I chose a used 70-210 f4, and not the L version. Also $80 used, works great, and much more discrete than the white lenses. Great today for tighter shots of my kids playing in the sprinkler. Plenty sharp at 5.6 and I will shoot it at f4 at my son's dance competitions.


6D | 35 f2 | 50 1.8 | 85 1.8 | 28 - 135 f3.5 - 5.6 | 70-210 f4

  
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Charlie
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Aug 31, 2014 19:25 |  #36

Mornnb wrote in post #17128300 (external link)
They are not testing the Leica APO 50mm f/2, which is Leica's best 50mm.

Note the results of this optical bench test by Lens Rental, the Leica APO comes out on top, with the Sigma 50mm Art second and the Zeiss Otus 3rd.

QUOTED IMAGE
http://www.lensrentals​.com …r-50mm-lenses-version-0-7 (external link)

this test is done at infinity, it's an older style method, and frankly, I think it's highly inaccurate in typical scenarios. It's likely, the ze55 craps all over the summicron since it does the summilux.

When you've got a test that says the otus is not the absolute sharpest 50mm, you've done something wrong.


Sony A7riii/A9 - FE 12-24/4 - FE 24-240 - SY 24/2.8 - FE 28/2 - FE 35/2.8 - FE 50/1.8 - FE 85/1.8 - EF 135/1.8 Art - F 600/5.6 - CZ 100-300 - Astro Rok 14/2.8 - Tamron 17-28/2.8 - 28-75/2.8 RXD, 70-200/2.8 VC

  
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moltengold
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Aug 31, 2014 20:49 |  #37

Fujifilm X-E2 smaller and thinner
http://snapsort.com …m-X-E2-vs-Leica-M-Typ-240 (external link)


| Canon EOS | and some canon lenses

  
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MCTuomey
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Aug 31, 2014 21:30 |  #38

Charlie wrote in post #17128489 (external link)
this test is done at infinity, it's an older style method, and frankly, I think it's highly inaccurate in typical scenarios. It's likely, the ze55 craps all over the summicron since it does the summilux.

When you've got a test that says the otus is not the absolute sharpest 50mm, you've done something wrong.

brilliant Charlie. first, you reference a test scenario where non-native, adapted glass is compared to native glass on an A7R, omitting the often-cited performance issues associated with many M-mount lenses adapted to the A7R (of which the lux 50 is one), and conclude that the FE 55 f/1.8 "crushes" the summilux 50 f/1.4. then, second, when a more objective, unbiased, simple comparison of resolution is presented, you attempt to discredit the test. third, you stoop to excremental imagery to describe the superiority of the ze55 (sic) compared to both the cron and lux.

btw, roger cicala's bench testing is first-rate, with equipment to match. would love to hear how you conclude lens rental testing is "older style" and "highly inaccurate."

i'll stop there because the dialogue's deteriorated enough to be senseless.


mike

a couple of canon bodies and a few good lenses

https://www.flickr.com​/photos/9176501@N08/ (external link)

  
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kf095
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Sep 01, 2014 00:33 as a reply to  @ MCTuomey's post |  #39

I'm not tables guy, but photog in terms of gear.
Leica sensor seems to be very forgiving with non-Leica glass.
I have seen some good pictures even with cheap FSU.
Not to mention modern M mount CV.
I have LTM version of their 35 2.5 once, it was brutally sharp.
First lens I wanted to de-sharp in LR. Fine bokeh as well.
Very small lens. On any Leica M it makes it as small factor kit.
Cost is fraction from Leica glass, but nothing is wrong with IQ, with most of CV M-mount glass.

Have to admit my film kit wins over my 5D kit in terms of which camera I want to take with me.
5D is the tool and nothing else, holding Leica is adding much more.

OP seems to be concerned with public reaction on DSLR. Also have to admit, reaction on Leica is different.
Some will notice and freak out in good way, most - just no reaction, comparing to DSLR.
Most likely any mirrorless camera will do the same trick. But some of them have very disproportional "native" lenses comparing to camera. It turns me off from some of them, personally. Leica is much more balanced kit, due to absence of AF and IS by default :)


Old Site (external link). M-E and ME blog (external link). Film Flickr (external link). my DigitaL and AnaLog Gear.

  
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Charlie
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Sep 01, 2014 01:29 |  #40

MCTuomey wrote in post #17128643 (external link)
brilliant Charlie. first, you reference a test scenario where non-native, adapted glass is compared to native glass on an A7R, omitting the often-cited performance issues associated with many M-mount lenses adapted to the A7R (of which the lux 50 is one), and conclude that the FE 55 f/1.8 "crushes" the summilux 50 f/1.4. then, second, when a more objective, unbiased, simple comparison of resolution is presented, you attempt to discredit the test. third, you stoop to excremental imagery to describe the superiority of the ze55 (sic) compared to both the cron and lux.

btw, roger cicala's bench testing is first-rate, with equipment to match. would love to hear how you conclude lens rental testing is "older style" and "highly inaccurate."

i'll stop there because the dialogue's deteriorated enough to be senseless.

Bench testing is simply that. Dxo also contradicts rogers findings. I also sourced side by side comparisons, but you can pretend those don't exist.

Lastly, you should read rogers article again, even he notes there would be different numbers with different tests.


Sony A7riii/A9 - FE 12-24/4 - FE 24-240 - SY 24/2.8 - FE 28/2 - FE 35/2.8 - FE 50/1.8 - FE 85/1.8 - EF 135/1.8 Art - F 600/5.6 - CZ 100-300 - Astro Rok 14/2.8 - Tamron 17-28/2.8 - 28-75/2.8 RXD, 70-200/2.8 VC

  
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Mornnb
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Sep 02, 2014 05:08 |  #41

Charlie wrote in post #17128868 (external link)
Bench testing is simply that. Dxo also contradicts rogers findings. I also sourced side by side comparisons, but you can pretend those don't exist.

Lastly, you should read rogers article again, even he notes there would be different numbers with different tests.

There are a couple of problems with the 3d-Kraft article as well.
They are testing on the Sony A7. As Lens Rental has found out sensor stack thickness can make a difference. Sensor stack thickness is the layer of glass and/or the AA filter on top of the sensor, and optical design of the lens needs to be designed with the sensor stack thickness in mind because it does change optical behaviour. As Leica lenses have a long history and have generally been designed for film, they have kept their sensor stacks as thin as possible. Where modern lenses from Zeiss and Sigma will generally be designed with typical DSLR sensors in mind.
Here is the Sensor stack thickness of various camera bodies:
Leica M9 0.8mm
Canon 6D 2mm
Sony A7 2.5mm

Secondly, they're only testing Leica's mid-range lenses and a super fast prime which is designed for bokeh rather than sharpness. The $8000 Leica APO 50mm f/2 'unobtanium' is the companies flagship lens in terms of optical performance. (yet the $1000 Sigma keeps up with it pretty well according to Lens Rental, go figure).


Canon 5D Mark III - Leica M240
EF 16-35mm F/4 IS L - EF 14mm f/2.8 L II - - EF 17mm TS-E L - EF 24-70mm f/2.8 L II - EF 70-200mm IS II f/2.8 L - Sigma 35mm f/1.4 Art - Sigma 85mm f/1.4 EX
Voigtlander 15mm III - 28mm Elmarit-M ASPH - 35mm f/1.4 Summilux-M FLE - 50mm f/1.4 Summilux-M ASPH
500px (external link)

  
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mclaren777
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Sep 02, 2014 10:09 |  #42

The Sony A7 is definitely worth considering, as is the Fuji X-T1.

IMAGE NOT FOUND
IMAGE IS A REDIRECT OR MISSING!
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A simple comparison of sensor technology: Nikon vs. Canon (external link)
A technical comparison of sensor technology: Exposure Latitude (external link)

  
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jffielde
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Sep 02, 2014 23:00 as a reply to  @ mclaren777's post |  #43

Has DXO tested the Leica 50mm APO? I didn't think they had. The only quantitative data I've seen is quoted by Mike above, but I'd be interested in more.




  
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BigAl007
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Sep 03, 2014 09:35 |  #44

I am sorry but any testing of lens resolving power that relies on using a camera body, except where you can use the same sensor in both cameras (Film), is pointless. It tells you nothing about the lenses from different manufacturers made for different mounts that is comparable. Even testing on film is limited by the resolving power of the film emulsion, although at least film emulsion is analogue so doesn't have a fixed hard cutoff frequency. There must be many lenses out there that can out resolve even crop format sensors, given the number of such bodies fitted with AA filters. Of course it doesn't help that, except for the Foveon sensor, the chrominance data is resolved at half the linear resolution of the luminance data. The question then becomes is the AA filter set to cut off at f/2 for the luminance data or the chrominance? Or indeed just how close it is allowed to come to f/2 of the sensor.

If you were able to remove the AA filter from the sensor, you would still not be able to tell if the lens could resolve luminance values for signals above the sensor f/2 value based on the sensel pitch of the sensor, so that is a hard limit on any lens resolution testing using a digital sensor.

There are analogue testing methods that are available that can measure the lenses true resolution, but of course compared to a "camera" and a test chart they get very expensive. DXO annoy me the most with their "independent" testing, as all of the testing that they do is simply done to facilitate their software products, which rely on recording data for both the lenses and the bodies that they are mounted on. Finding a secondary market for that data is great, but I think that they could be a lot more honest about things.

Alan


My Flickr (external link)
My new Aviation images blog site (external link)

  
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HKFEVER
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Sep 03, 2014 10:01 |  #45

Go for it ( M240).

I am die hard Canon user, have tons of L.

But hey, RF is very addictive. Different shooting style totally.

Have M3, MP, A7, A7R, M9P, M240, and whole lot of M lenses ( from 1953 to current ), in just 2 yrs time. Each lens has its own style and favor.

Can't compare A7.. to M.




  
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6D or Leica M240 Switch thoughts
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