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FORUMS Post Processing, Marketing & Presenting Photos RAW, Post Processing & Printing 
Thread started 17 Sep 2014 (Wednesday) 16:43
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7Dii "Noise" - Imaging Resource raw files

 
hollis_f
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Sep 19, 2014 07:36 |  #16

Is there really much point in discussing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin when they're pre-production angels dancing a non-optimised choreography? ???


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Sep 19, 2014 07:39 |  #17

Assuming we know the generic pin size it's at least relative.


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Sep 19, 2014 07:42 |  #18

This thread is about 7dII noise.

I think theres enough evidence out there now to show noise will be an issue.


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Sep 19, 2014 08:17 |  #19

So you don't think the 7D2 will have as clean an image at 6400 as this 5D2 low light sample?

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Sep 19, 2014 10:13 |  #20

While over at Imaging-Resource click on the compare cameras tab and compare images with the 7DII and Nikon's top crop camera the D7100 to put things in perspective.


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Sep 19, 2014 10:37 |  #21

If 7D II sensor produces iso 6400 images like iso 3200 images of t3i, that is a good improvement. t3i can produce good iso 3200 images for family use. Next rebel with this new sensor and some more focus points will be great.


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Sep 19, 2014 10:47 |  #22

hollis_f wrote in post #17164953 (external link)
Is there really much point in discussing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin when they're pre-production angels dancing a non-optimised choreography? ???

ditto :)


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Sep 19, 2014 11:47 |  #23

Jon_Doh wrote in post #17165211 (external link)
While over at Imaging-Resource click on the compare cameras tab and compare images with the 7DII and Nikon's top crop camera the D7100 to put things in perspective.

Well--yes and no really.

I mean the 7d2 looks better at high ISO than the D7100 in those samples. But that is likely because Canon's jpeg processing is far better (imho) than Nikon's. But the Canon files also have more NR in the reds. The canon noise looks a little better though.

But I don't think the the 7d2 will really be any better than D7100 in raw. I bet it'll be about the same in reality. One might rate slightly higher on dxo or something but meh, it will be about the same I bet in raw, as far as high ISO goes. Which is fine.


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Sep 19, 2014 17:33 |  #24

From an analysis of the raw images at IR, posted at FM (external link)

The results confirm that the dynamic range is identical at low ISO compared to the 7D. However, it seems that there is a noticeable improvement at high ISO.


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Sep 19, 2014 17:43 |  #25

AJSJones wrote in post #17165983 (external link)
From an analysis of the raw images at IR, posted at FM (external link)

The results confirm that the dynamic range is identical at low ISO compared to the 7D. However, it seems that there is a noticeable improvement at high ISO.

What I read from all the posts is that the 7D2 is about 2/3 stops better than the 7D, and very close to the 70D, to the point of being hardly noticeable. That is my assessment too from looking at what raws I can get, and Canon's JPGs out of camera.


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Sep 19, 2014 17:48 |  #26

I posted the link to the FM post because it is an analysis of the raw data - read noise and well capacity - no "subjective assessment involved". (That part comes later as in "how much noise do I consider acceptable?" :D)


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davesrose
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Sep 19, 2014 18:19 |  #27

AJSJones wrote in post #17166003 (external link)
I posted the link to the FM post because it is an analysis of the raw data - read noise and well capacity - no "subjective assessment involved". (That part comes later as in "how much noise do I consider acceptable?" :D)

But those photos aren't testing the full DR of the sensor. Each image is different composition/situation. The ISO 100 image doesn't fully utilize the saturation point (see that the saturation value in it is less then the other ISOs). It's a reflection of the scene and not the full DR of sensor. There's no indication that Canon has drastically changed DR of their sensors, though...I'll give you that. In one ad I've seen for the 7DmkII (from Canon Japan) claims about 12.5 EV. Seeing as the current DR scores I've seen for the D810 are unbelievable, I think effective DR is another feature that just needs time to evaluate (and as we've debated, is not an absolute). I think the full evaluation of the noise and DR of the 7DmkII won't be fully decided until the camera is being sold (and if there's no major recalls/firmware updates)!


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Sep 19, 2014 18:29 |  #28

One of the promising things I've seen mentioned (I don't remember where, maybe this thread) is that the low-ISO fixed pattern noise in pushed underexposures seems to be largely missing in the 7DII. From what I've seen in the Imaging Resource JPEG samples, the 7DII looks to be roughly even with the 70D and 5DII in higher ISO noise, and maybe a stop or a little over, say 1 1/3 stop, behind compared to the 5DIII. It's very clearly superior to the original 7d's noise performance. Overall, the 7DII is showing pretty good noise performance for the significantly smaller area sensor compared to FF. I wanted to try a RAW conversion, but after TeamSpeed gave me the hint above so I could download DPP 4 I've found that the 5DIII version of DPP 4.0.1 apparently won't open a 7DII .CR2 file, so that will have to wait. It's all pretty subjective (except for the FM Forum analysis AJSJones links to above, which is dynamic range focused), but I think good enough, along with the new AF system and other features, to make this camera a real winner if what you want is a very capable 1.6 crop at significantly less cost than FF Canon cameras with more-or-less equivalent non-sensor features. I just wish I could post my first 7DII image here on 1 October (as I did with my 7D in 2009), but looks like it will have to be sometime in early December based on current estimates of availability.


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Sep 19, 2014 18:53 |  #29

The read noise comes (as noted in the post) " (using the masked pixels at the left of the RAW, except for the first lines)" so it is the normal way of assessing dynamic range - i.e. not using the image itself. The ISO 100 saturation value is indeed a little low, so the DR for that is probably a little higher. Their overall conclusion still stands and so far no-one seems surprised: no serious change at low ISO and an improvement at higher ISO, worthwhile but not a lot. (I'm not sure what you mean by "effective" DR, but the measured read noise to saturation vaue is an absolute measure of DR. How much noise you can tolerate is, of course subjective - so that's maybe where "effective" varies from person to person:D)


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davesrose
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Sep 19, 2014 19:12 |  #30

AJSJones wrote in post #17166102 (external link)
(I'm not sure what you mean by "effective" DR, but the measured read noise to saturation vaue is an absolute measure of DR. How much noise you can tolerate is, of course subjective - so that's maybe where "effective" varies from person to person:D)

Well the main thing we've argued about with DR is weight of saturation point vs noise floor. While I'm begining to see more validity with DXO's overall measurements, I'm still wondering about their DR scores. With camera manufacturers, they apparently utilize saturation points and SNR.

http://www.sensorgen.i​nfo/ (external link)

The "effective" part is both the acceptable noise in PP your shadows (where Sony tech is better), but also the point in which you're reaching the sensor's saturation point (which traditionally has been Canon's strong point...and somehow the D810 suddenly has a much higher saturation point from some source). That the linked ISO 100 photo has a lower saturation point value, is indicative that the exposure was not reaching into full exposure of the sensor (and therefore not "measuring" the full DR).


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7Dii "Noise" - Imaging Resource raw files
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