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FORUMS Canon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon EOS Digital Cameras 
Thread started 21 Sep 2014 (Sunday) 17:32
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Which camera to buy?

 
iowajim
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Sep 21, 2014 17:32 |  #1

I've got the 550D with decent glass. I'd like to upgrade the body. I use the camera for a wide range of topics - portraits, landscapes, sports, any anything else that comes around (all-purpose family camera and more). In particular, I desire better autofocusing accuracy, frames per second, and better low light / high iso performance. I shoot 8k shots a year, give or take.

I have many questions.

1. What does it mean to have a cross-point focus point at 2.8? Dose this indicate that it only performs as a cross-point at 2.8 or brighter? (was going to say bigger, but that can be taken both ways)

2. Canon's anti-aliasing filter - is there a consensus on the value of this? 5Dc users speak so fondly of the IQ from the 5Dc, attributed to the clarity resulting from a weak AA filter. Nikon's D800E went without one as well (and the 810?), producing enhanced clarity images. Is the AA filter as Canon employs it an IQ limiter?

2a. I've read that the AA filter intentionally blurs the image a hair to eliminate the Moire pattern problem - does this reduce the net effective resolution of the image, or is it worse than that? Is the AA filter needed for photos? Can it be deactivated?

3. High iso noise - ETTR helps a lot, but will I see a stop of difference with any Canon crop body?

As I look to upgrade, I find myself contemplating the 7DII, 70D, 6D, A7, and maybe even a Nikon.

7DII - maybe a 'battleship in a bathtub' for what I need, but video focusing and so many cross type focus points has caught my interest. Seems like the IQ was not a key upgrade based on initial reports.

70D - 19 cross type focus points would still be a serious step up for me, and the video focusing looks effective. Pentaprism system would be a nice upgrade, as I understand it provides a brighter viewfinder view. I've come across many reports of focusing problems with the 70D - is this real or imagined?

6D- Better high-iso performance, but maybe not the autofocus improvement I'm looking for, or am I wrong?

A7 - I don't like the idea of using an adapter, especially with an autofocus speed penalty, but it would allow me to keep my glass. And FF high iso performance

Nikon - do I dare?

Please provide your impressions and recommendations!

Jim


Jim, in Iowa
80D / T2i / Tokina 11-16mm f2.8 / Sigma 18-35mm f1.8 / Canon 24-105 f4 / Tamron SP VC 70-200mm f2.8 / Sigma 150-600mm C

  
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craigbeckta
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Sep 22, 2014 05:28 |  #2

I have been shooting with the Canon
5D MK III with L series lenses for the
past year.

I just recently bought the Nikon D810
mainly because of these reasons.

The Nikon Sensor is made by Sony and
it's better than the Canon sensor.

36 MP vs 23
Native ISO 64
3 Stop more dynamic range
More sharpness and clarity
Larger file size and resolution
Flash Shutter Sync 250 vs 200 or sometimes
160 with Alien Bee's.

The images look better straight out of camera
although the Canon 5D Images look pretty good
as well.


"Online Digital Photography Training ( Image Classroom )" (external link)

  
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nbaresejr
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Sep 22, 2014 05:35 as a reply to  @ craigbeckta's post |  #3

I just upgraded from the 550d to the 6d. The difference is IQ is amazing. High ISO is a breeze.

My concerns were the lack of cross type focus points. The center point in fantastic and the outer points are good in aqueduct light. I shoot landscapes and pics of my family. I did find tracking in AI Servo very good with the center point also.

I am very happy with the jump I made and am not looking back.


Canon 5D mk IV, 6D-----Canon 16-35L F4 IS Canon 24-70L F4 IS-----Canon 70-200L F2.8 IS USM ----- Sigma 35 1.4------600EX ii RT, 430EX iii RT, 430 EX ii-----Phottix Laso transmitter and reciever
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iowajim
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Sep 22, 2014 14:31 |  #4

nbaresejr- I looked a little closer at the 6d - it has one cross type focus point, but it really makes it count, effective down to -3ev. Did you always shoot with your L lenses? Did your lenses hold up with the FF body transition?

Also, I just read that the 6d has video issues with Moire patterning. That might be an indicator of a weaker AA filter, which can be a good thing for photography, apparently.

craigbeckta - thanks for the input!


Jim, in Iowa
80D / T2i / Tokina 11-16mm f2.8 / Sigma 18-35mm f1.8 / Canon 24-105 f4 / Tamron SP VC 70-200mm f2.8 / Sigma 150-600mm C

  
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monkey44
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Sep 22, 2014 15:28 |  #5

Personally, I like to see Canon lens with Canon camera... it's made for it without 'adapting'.

Other than that, keep your eyes on the Refurb at Canon, Adorama, B&H and others -- it changes frequently. Although 'frequently" is a bit of an oblique term. But at least you get the one-year warranty ... a little patience and you'll probably replace it for the bucks you have, or add a little and upgrade if you get a good deal.

Some good deals out there now too - on 7D, 6D ... and kit lenses with it. I really like my 24-105 despite what some say - and maybe just got lucky, but it performs extremely well.

Tough break on your gear !! We all hate thieves.




  
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Jon_Doh
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Sep 22, 2014 15:55 |  #6

If you are not wedded to a brand consider the Nikon D750. It has 24 mp, great autofocus and metering and fantastic dynamic range all for about a thousand bucks less than the 5D III. And if you need spot metering to any autofocus point it has that while the 5D III does not. On the other hand, if you have too much invested in Canon lenses I would suggest the 7D II. It's a crop camera, but it has a far better autofocus than the 6D. Neither the 6D or 7D II link spot metering to any autofocus point but the center one. I use this feature a lot so it's important to me.


I use a Kodak Brownie

  
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nbaresejr
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Sep 22, 2014 16:18 |  #7

iowajim wrote in post #17171338 (external link)
nbaresejr- I looked a little closer at the 6d - it has one cross type focus point, but it really makes it count, effective down to -3ev. Did you always shoot with your L lenses? Did your lenses hold up with the FF body transition?

Also, I just read that the 6d has video issues with Moire patterning. That might be an indicator of a weaker AA filter, which can be a good thing for photography, apparently.

craigbeckta - thanks for the input!

When I had the 550D my primary lens was the Sigma 17-50 2.8 OS. In the transistion I lost that lens and the Sigma 10-20 UWA. I was able to carry over the Canon 70-200L F4 IS. The 24-70 F4 IS was purchased as part of my package. The deal came up on canonpricewatch.com for 2199 after rebates and I was sold. I always wanted that lens over the 24-105 and this was the best price on that combo I have seen to date.


Canon 5D mk IV, 6D-----Canon 16-35L F4 IS Canon 24-70L F4 IS-----Canon 70-200L F2.8 IS USM ----- Sigma 35 1.4------600EX ii RT, 430EX iii RT, 430 EX ii-----Phottix Laso transmitter and reciever
flickr (external link)
http://www.nickbarese.​com (external link)

  
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sploo
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Sep 22, 2014 17:06 |  #8

iowajim wrote in post #17169544 (external link)
I've got the 550D with decent glass. I'd like to upgrade the body. I use the camera for a wide range of topics - portraits, landscapes, sports, any anything else that comes around (all-purpose family camera and more). In particular, I desire better autofocusing accuracy, frames per second, and better low light / high iso performance. I shoot 8k shots a year, give or take.

I have many questions.

1. What does it mean to have a cross-point focus point at 2.8? Dose this indicate that it only performs as a cross-point at 2.8 or brighter? (was going to say bigger, but that can be taken both ways)

2. Canon's anti-aliasing filter - is there a consensus on the value of this? 5Dc users speak so fondly of the IQ from the 5Dc, attributed to the clarity resulting from a weak AA filter. Nikon's D800E went without one as well (and the 810?), producing enhanced clarity images. Is the AA filter as Canon employs it an IQ limiter?

2a. I've read that the AA filter intentionally blurs the image a hair to eliminate the Moire pattern problem - does this reduce the net effective resolution of the image, or is it worse than that? Is the AA filter needed for photos? Can it be deactivated?

3. High iso noise - ETTR helps a lot, but will I see a stop of difference with any Canon crop body?

As I look to upgrade, I find myself contemplating the 7DII, 70D, 6D, A7, and maybe even a Nikon.

7DII - maybe a 'battleship in a bathtub' for what I need, but video focusing and so many cross type focus points has caught my interest. Seems like the IQ was not a key upgrade based on initial reports.

70D - 19 cross type focus points would still be a serious step up for me, and the video focusing looks effective. Pentaprism system would be a nice upgrade, as I understand it provides a brighter viewfinder view. I've come across many reports of focusing problems with the 70D - is this real or imagined?

6D- Better high-iso performance, but maybe not the autofocus improvement I'm looking for, or am I wrong?

A7 - I don't like the idea of using an adapter, especially with an autofocus speed penalty, but it would allow me to keep my glass. And FF high iso performance

Nikon - do I dare?

Please provide your impressions and recommendations!

Jim

1. It means you need to have f/2.8 glass (or faster) for those points to be active. If active, then it can improve accuracy. See http://www.the-digital-picture.com …-autofocus-explained.aspx (external link)


2/2a. Aliasing problems (see http://en.wikipedia.or​g/wiki/Aliasing (external link)) occur when detail goes beyond the frequency that's possible to record on the sensor. An AA filter blurs detail near that frequency, thus reducing the chance you'll see aliasing problems. From memory, the differences between the D800 and D800E were visible at high magnification, but possibly questionable unless you print really big.

An AA filter is part of the hardware of the camera - you can't turn it off (though there are people that claim to be able to remove it from certain cameras).

As you get higher sensor resolutions, it's arguably less important; hence the A7R and D810 doing away with it (the D800E apparently had some 'null' filter, that's slightly different from just removing it completely).

Note that Moiré in video is usually going to be a result of poor quality subsampling of the (higher resolution) sensor data. It's probably no coincidence that the 5D3's resolution of 5760 × 3840 is exactly 3 times 1920 x 1280 (chop the top/bottom off for a 16:9 1080p resolution); making a high quality/low performance impact subsampling algorithm possible (hence little Moiré in video).


3. Probably best to check out comparison images (e.g. those from DPReview). I suspect there will be an improvement with the latest crop bodies vs the 550D. ETTR is indeed very good practice (and arguably you'll get better images with a slightly inferior sensor + ETTR than a better one without)


The 7D was a tank (in a good way). The 7DII looks superb, and I say that as a 5D3 owner. IQ should at least match the 70D (probably a disappointment if it doesn't surpass it slightly).

The 70D would be a massive step up from the 550D, and has a touch screen that's apparently very useful for focussing during video shooting. Focusing issues seems real (got a colleague with one, and problems) but I don't know how widespread.

I'd suspect the 6D AF would be at least as good as the 550D (probably better; certainly in low light). It's not going to be a sports tracking monster, but everything is relative - the 5D3 is better, so's the 1DX. The 7D is probably better (though not in low light), and the 7DII will be too. The high ISO performance however is very good - better than the 5D3.

A7 or A7R - both using Sony Exmor sensors. Stunning quality and dynamic range, but yes, likely manual focussing is in order (though the focus peaking apparently makes that quite good). Again not for sports though.

Nikon - yes, the D610 looks very good. Image quality on the D810 is stunning (I'm not familiar with their crop bodies). Never liked the ergonomics personally though.

Of the above, the 70D and 5D3 (and D610 and D810) are probably the best all-rounders. The 7DII is going to be suited for sports/action/wildlife​, and the A7/A7R make great studio/landscape bodies. The 6D is possibly the low light king (outside of a 1DX or D4).

Essentially: if you want "autofocusing accuracy, frames per second, and better low light / high iso performance" you need a 1DX ;)

One question: what glass do you have? Obviously EF-S lenses would have to be replaced if going for a Canon FF.


Camera, some lenses, too little time, too little talent

  
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iowajim
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Sep 22, 2014 20:12 |  #9

Sploo, Jon Doe, and monkey44, thanks for your insights. I have a 24-105 for my walk-around lens, a Tokina 11-16 for wide angle stuff (an EF-S lens but will work at 16mm on a FF), a Tamron 70-300VC SP that is decent on a crop body, don't know if it will be satisfactory on a FF, a Sigma 70 macro, and an impulse buy of a Rokinon 35 f1.4. So I'm largely FF ready from a lens standpoint.

The 70D is tempting, but the large number of autofocus issues has me spooked, and even then in normal operation it seems to prefer the STM lenses. And the new focusing approach was so successful, it wasn't used in the 7DII? The 6D's IQ is tempting, along with its high iso capabilities, but will be challenged at the soccer field. Or for the same price I get the 7DII that has the video focusing, incredible autofocusing, but not the IQ or high iso capabilities.

At least I know that I haven't found my upgrade camera just yet.


Jim, in Iowa
80D / T2i / Tokina 11-16mm f2.8 / Sigma 18-35mm f1.8 / Canon 24-105 f4 / Tamron SP VC 70-200mm f2.8 / Sigma 150-600mm C

  
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MalVeauX
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Sep 22, 2014 20:49 |  #10

Heya,

Based on what you've described, the 70D really is going to give you everything you're after in the $800~1000 range. Nothing else comes close in Canon's line up currently at that price. The 7D can be had for relatively less, $650~850, and while it has the robust autofocus and speed, it's ISO performance lags a little behind the 70D. The 70D has the edge in image quality and ISO, but only by a bit more. The 70D has some more resolution and a bit better ISO (not tremendous, but every bit counts if you care) while still being fast with great autofocus. Overall great camera.

The AF issues are the 1%. The camera is not getting re-called. You buy it from a reputable dealer, it will either have an issue or it won't (any camera will, the 1DX has shutter issues sometimes, but no one is spooked from buying it other than cost). You just have more people able to afford the 70D, so if anyone has an issue the first thing they do is whine on the internet, instead of return it for another body.

So anyways, the 70D sounds like it will do what you want.

The alternative in this price range is the 1D3.

Very best,


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sploo
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Sep 23, 2014 05:48 |  #11

iowajim wrote in post #17171947 (external link)
Sploo, Jon Doe, and monkey44, thanks for your insights. I have a 24-105 for my walk-around lens, a Tokina 11-16 for wide angle stuff (an EF-S lens but will work at 16mm on a FF), a Tamron 70-300VC SP that is decent on a crop body, don't know if it will be satisfactory on a FF, a Sigma 70 macro, and an impulse buy of a Rokinon 35 f1.4. So I'm largely FF ready from a lens standpoint.

The 70D is tempting, but the large number of autofocus issues has me spooked, and even then in normal operation it seems to prefer the STM lenses. And the new focusing approach was so successful, it wasn't used in the 7DII? The 6D's IQ is tempting, along with its high iso capabilities, but will be challenged at the soccer field. Or for the same price I get the 7DII that has the video focusing, incredible autofocusing, but not the IQ or high iso capabilities.

At least I know that I haven't found my upgrade camera just yet.

Given the same resolution, a FF sensor puts less "strain" on a lens - in the sense that you're ultimately magnifying the image less in order to produce the same sized print. E.g. an A4 landscape print would need an ~8x magnification of a FF sensor, but a ~13x magnification of a Canon crop sensor. On the flip side, you'll use more of the lens image circle on a FF sensor - so if your EF glass has a good centre but poor edges it may be "better" on a crop.

My suspicion is that you'd see improvements on FF with most of your lenses - though it may only be obvious at pixel peeping/large print levels.

The 7DII uses a different AF system to the 70D not because the 70D system is "bad" - it's just Canon making incremental improvements, and accounting for the fact the 7D "line" is for sports/action - so AF is a deal maker/breaker. The 70D has a good percentage of the AF system from the original 7D - which is very impressive for an xxD line camera.

The problem in a way is that you want it all (;)) and video AF + great stills AF + low light + fps + landscape quality etc. goes across a number of different types of shooting.

I'd agree with MalVeauX that the 70D is probably the best all rounder for your needs, but would say that the 6D might be the better choice if you favoured low light / high iso over AF and video.

PS Just checked with my 70D-shooting colleague; he's aware there is a confirmable issue but it turns out that he's never actually hit it himself (I previously thought he had).


Camera, some lenses, too little time, too little talent

  
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Lumens
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Sep 23, 2014 07:51 |  #12

nbaresejr wrote in post #17170466 (external link)
I just upgraded from the 550d to the 6d. The difference is IQ is amazing. High ISO is a breeze.

My concerns were the lack of cross type focus points. The center point in fantastic and the outer points are good in aqueduct light. I shoot landscapes and pics of my family. I did find tracking in AI Servo very good with the center point also.

I am very happy with the jump I made and am not looking back.

Same here, moved from T2i to 6D and love my 6D. I shoot mostly outdoors and use single center point most of the time. The 6D is an awesome camera.


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iowajim
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Sep 25, 2014 12:27 |  #13

I weighed all the pros and cons and opted for the 70D. The bundle from adorama was too good to pass up. $800 for the camera and a large format printer! At $1000 under the 7DII, there was no contest. I am concerned about the large number of defect reports, but we'll roll the dice and ee what happens.

Still, for that price, I wonder if I bought a picture of the 70D instead of a 70D...


Jim, in Iowa
80D / T2i / Tokina 11-16mm f2.8 / Sigma 18-35mm f1.8 / Canon 24-105 f4 / Tamron SP VC 70-200mm f2.8 / Sigma 150-600mm C

  
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sploo
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Sep 26, 2014 09:37 |  #14

iowajim wrote in post #17177170 (external link)
I weighed all the pros and cons and opted for the 70D. The bundle from adorama was too good to pass up. $800 for the camera and a large format printer! At $1000 under the 7DII, there was no contest. I am concerned about the large number of defect reports, but we'll roll the dice and ee what happens.

Still, for that price, I wonder if I bought a picture of the 70D instead of a 70D...

Nice. Coming from a T2i I think you're going to be pretty stunned with the differences in the AF system.


Camera, some lenses, too little time, too little talent

  
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