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FORUMS Canon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon EOS Digital Cameras 
Thread started 22 Sep 2014 (Monday) 15:09
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Will Mirrorless "kill" DSLR?

 
Talley
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Sep 23, 2014 13:10 |  #76

Charlie wrote in post #17173290 (external link)
It's also awkward at times, like pulling out a DSLR at a restaurant will get you looks, while a smallish EOS-M or A7r will be ignored.

whats awkward is carrying the 5D3 with the black rapid strap and going into a bathroom and when going to wash your hands you position the camera behind you and the shutter button gets pressed taking a photo of the next guy over standing by the urinal and the review screen pops up and the guy looks back and see's it.

ya mine was awkward.


A7rIII | A7III | 12-24 F4 | 16-35 GM | 28-75 2.8 | 100-400 GM | 12mm 2.8 Fisheye | 35mm 2.8 | 85mm 1.8 | 35A | 85A | 200mm L F2 IS | MC-11
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Charlie
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Sep 23, 2014 13:25 |  #77

Gobeatty wrote in post #17173349 (external link)
I've tried Sony and didn't get along with it although the IQ was very good. I tried Olympus, and while the sensor is smaller at 4/3, it felt and handled great. I couldn't put it down and wanted to go shoot with it. The glass is also appreciably smaller than APSC, delivering on the promise of smaller/lighter when a smaller sensor mirrorless camera is used. The fast primes are so small - you have to see them in real life to appreciate just how micro they are. The new 12-40 2.8 zoom is a fraction of the weight, size and cost of Canon's 24-70 2.8 and is steller. The Sony lenses are not so much smaller than my Canon (non-L) lenses and in Canon land, if you want fast glass, you have to use the FF lenses anyway for the most part and the focal lengths get wonky.

And fwiw, I really like the handling of my 6D. Fantastic camera.

you can definitely use legacy fast glass if you want small, but most people cant fathom the idea of giving up AF. For those who can, sony offers top notch tools for manual focus, and the three dials makes it perfect for control, I feel plenty comfortable even without top LCD panel, which I've had since I started shooting D60, 30D, D30 days...

I guess it's a fairly small niche, but you can definitely have a small FF kit.

here's my current kit compared to the 6D and kit lens.

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IMG_2280 (external link) by charlie617 (external link), on Flickr
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IMG_2283 (external link) by charlie617 (external link), on Flickr

the sony kit includes 24F2.8, 50F1.4, 135F2.8. I'de argue that the total IQ is considerably better on my sony kit with more coverage and low light flexibility.

It's not on the same level of my L primes kit, but it's damn close and weighs a ton less. Not sure how fuji stacks up to my cheapy primes, but stopped down for landscapes, they are very sharp.

Talley wrote in post #17173386 (external link)
whats awkward is carrying the 5D3 with the black rapid strap and going into a bathroom and when going to wash your hands you position the camera behind you and the shutter button gets pressed taking a photo of the next guy over standing by the urinal and the review screen pops up and the guy looks back and see's it.

ya mine was awkward.

lol, I hardly ever shoot with a strap anymore, only wrist strap. Went to legoland with my sony kit in a fanny pack. Got to go on all the rides with my camera on me. Pretty sweet.

jptsr1 wrote in post #17173375 (external link)
I was wondering the same.

optical viewfinder. You need a mirror to have one.


Sony A7iii/A9 - FE 24/1.4 - SY 24/2.8 - FE 35/2.8 - FE 50/1.8 - FE 85/1.8 - F 600/5.6 - CZ 100-300 - Tamron 17-28/2.8 - 28-75/2.8 - 28-200 RXD
Panasonic G85/G9 - Laowa 7.5/2 - PL 15/1.7 - P 42.5/1.8 - OM 75/1.8 - PL 10-25/1.7 - P 12-32 - P 14-140

  
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pwm2
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Sep 23, 2014 13:29 |  #78

moltengold wrote in post #17171455 (external link)
you can ask bird shooters
can they live without big white primes ?
you can ask sport shooters
Can they live wothout the same big primes and zoom lenses ?
you can ask macro shooters
Can they live without good power macro lenses ?
and so the other kinds of photography

The big lenses can be used with mirrorless bodies too. The only thing is that with a huge tele lens, you don't have any advantage of a small camera body.


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Talley
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Sep 23, 2014 13:32 |  #79

Charlie wrote in post #17173410 (external link)
It's not on the same level of my L primes kit, but it's damn close and weighs a ton less. Not sure how fuji stacks up to my cheapy primes, but stopped down for landscapes, they are very sharp.

lol, I hardly ever shoot with a strap anymore, only wrist strap. Went to legoland with my sony kit in a fanny pack. Got to go on all the rides with my camera on me. Pretty sweet.

Yup... the Fuji lenses is what has my attention and I agree... these things are perfect for vacationing.

I don't use the strap anymore either. I hold my camera 99% of the time now.

I've pretty much want to give up all my zooms (except for 120-300) and go prime only on anything 135mm or wider.

For anything wider the mirrorless options I think will work fine.


A7rIII | A7III | 12-24 F4 | 16-35 GM | 28-75 2.8 | 100-400 GM | 12mm 2.8 Fisheye | 35mm 2.8 | 85mm 1.8 | 35A | 85A | 200mm L F2 IS | MC-11
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pwm2
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Sep 23, 2014 13:40 |  #80

Chief_10Beers wrote in post #17171665 (external link)
Me thinks it will be a long time that EVF's will match a OVF...............

An EVF seldom need to match the best aspects of an OVF.

In many situations it's the reverse - the OVF needs LCD overlays to try to match an EVF.

Think about your night time vision. The camera can capture scenes that you have a hard time see in the OVF - but an EVF can operate as night vision to let you spot that animal in the bushes. And the EVF can tell where the focus is. Or show a grid. Or show zebra patterns to indicate exposure levels. No hard-coded grid of AF points (while using the image sensor for AF allows you to focus on anything without calibration errors and have blink detection, smile detection focus-on-eyes, ...). And the EVF can zoom in on your focus point.

The only aspect that needs to be improved a bit is lag. And it's possible to have the image sensor support partial reads at 120fps or more - the current EVF technology already supports these update rates if the image sensor just supplies the data fast enough.


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10-22 | 16-35/2.8 L II | 20-35 | 24-105 L IS | 28-135 IS | 40/2.8 | 50/1.8 II | 70-200/2.8 L IS | 100/2.8 L IS | 100-400 L IS | Sigma 18-200DC
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pwm2
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Sep 23, 2014 13:42 |  #81

EverydayGetaway wrote in post #17171722 (external link)
10 years away? Did you see the new Samsung NX1? Granted it's not out for reviews yet, but if it's specs prove true to how it performs, it's going to be a serious contender, right up there with the 7D2.

Todays technology can do a lot. It's often more a question of what todays customers are ready to accept. Sometimes, the market has to move slowly just to have the customer base slowly come to accept the changes.


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pwm2
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Sep 23, 2014 13:47 |  #82

cdmicha wrote in post #17171725 (external link)
I don't know why any system has to "kill off" any other system.

History have shown that it's hard to kill off existing solutions even when significantly better solutions shows up. Traditions are important. Most of the time when a technology dies, it's because it's part of an eco system and depending on some other products that stops being available. Like when the movie industry killed off HD-DVD, people had no choice but selecting BD players instead.

But film will not die - just become more and more nice.

Mirror-reflex bodies will not die, even if the market moves towards optical viewfinders. All we will see, is changes in proportions between different types of camera gear. And that the mobile phones will continue to cut into the camera market, reducing the sales volumes and profits for the specialized camera manufacturers. Except possibly a few "high end" manufacturers that may continue to sell professional gear at exorbitant prices.


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10-22 | 16-35/2.8 L II | 20-35 | 24-105 L IS | 28-135 IS | 40/2.8 | 50/1.8 II | 70-200/2.8 L IS | 100/2.8 L IS | 100-400 L IS | Sigma 18-200DC
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pwm2
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Sep 23, 2014 13:51 |  #83

hiketheplanet wrote in post #17171726 (external link)
I do see an advantage, a big one, when it comes to lens weight and sizes. I'm sure many birders, wildlife, and sports shooters would welcome a lens that could do everything their great white could do at 1/3 the size and weight.

Sorry, but a mirrorless body will not slice away much from the size of the big lenses. The only way you can really cut size is if you move to smaller sensors so you could scale down the focal length of the lenses. But that would also affect the DoF unless the shorter lenses instead got really, really fast. So they would still end up very big and very expensive.

Its wide and normal lenses that saves the most size with a mirrorless body, from being able to be fitted closer to the sensor. But it still isn't trivial because if you move the lens too close to the sensor then the light rays will hit the sensor sideways. So you might then have to consider a curved sensor. Which is better for wide lenses than it is for tele lenses.


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Gobeatty
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Sep 23, 2014 13:54 |  #84

Charlie -

Thanx for the comparison pix. For full frame, the Sony is tiny, keeping company with the larger m4/3 and Fuji cameras. The Oly m4/3 primes are really tiny though if size/weight are primary concerns. The Sony can take forum members' Canon lenses which is a plus. Do Canon lenses autofocus on the A7? I know the focus aids are good and I use the peaking on my EM10 with the instant manual focus override.


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pwm2
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Sep 23, 2014 13:54 |  #85

Scatterbrained wrote in post #17171974 (external link)
Oly has a 300 f/2.8 lens. On a m4/3 system that is the same angle of view as a 600mm on 135, just sayin. ;)

And they know how to charge for that lens too.


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Sep 23, 2014 13:57 |  #86

pwm2 wrote in post #17173451 (external link)
History have shown that it's hard to kill off existing solutions even when significantly better solutions shows up. Traditions are important. ....

There are lots of examples where a better solution pretty much killed an existing technology, and some pretty recent examples. Try to go and buy a VCR, or a cassette player, or an 8-track. Vinyl records are about dead. And there are pleanty of examples of technologies that are dying like film, over the air TV, letter writing, the typewriter, and more. If something came along and delivered 1DX performance and quality at 1/2 the cost I think people would abandon the current 1DX in a heartbeat.


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Charlie
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Sep 23, 2014 13:57 |  #87

Talley wrote in post #17173423 (external link)
Yup... the Fuji lenses is what has my attention and I agree... these things are perfect for vacationing.

I don't use the strap anymore either. I hold my camera 99% of the time now.

I've pretty much want to give up all my zooms (except for 120-300) and go prime only on anything 135mm or wider.

For anything wider the mirrorless options I think will work fine.

yep, my DSLR kit taking a HUGE diet, to what I perceive as totally necessary, and nothing more. My kit will be a 70-200mk2 + extenders and 24-105 and maybe even a 5D3/1Dx in the future.

I dont feel compelled to buy autofocus primes since I've been fairly successful with manual focus, so I'm sticking with my FDn kit (combined total of a whopping $300) and have been pretty happy shooting with it. Great optics, fairly fast, dirt cheap, and small. Telephoto, I doubt any mirrorless can get close to the superzooms offered by FF DSLR.


Sony A7iii/A9 - FE 24/1.4 - SY 24/2.8 - FE 35/2.8 - FE 50/1.8 - FE 85/1.8 - F 600/5.6 - CZ 100-300 - Tamron 17-28/2.8 - 28-75/2.8 - 28-200 RXD
Panasonic G85/G9 - Laowa 7.5/2 - PL 15/1.7 - P 42.5/1.8 - OM 75/1.8 - PL 10-25/1.7 - P 12-32 - P 14-140

  
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pwm2
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Sep 23, 2014 14:05 |  #88

AlanU wrote in post #17172325 (external link)
Sony A7s kills virtually all dslr cameras in high iso for stills and video.

But remember that this isn't an argument for mirrorless. It's an argument for Exmor sensors.

Here is a partial list of advantages/disadvantag​es. Lots more should be possible to be added.

Some arguments for mirrorless:
- fast fps without flapping mirror
- smaller size with wide/normal lenses
- no calibration error of AF
- less mechanisms to break
- less sound
- more advanced focus modes with subject detection and "infinite" AF points.
- better night vision and easier manual focusing.
- easy chimping even in strong sun with the evf.
- an evf should draw less power than a big display
- short registration distance allows adapters to reuse existing lenses

And some against:
- no optical viewfinder
- power consumption to run EVF
- warmer sensor to feed EVF with enough fps to avoid lag
- warmer sensor to perform phase-detect or contrast AF fast enough
- needs battery grip or "faked" bulk to be easy to hold with larger lenses
- new line of native lenses (wide/normal) to take advantage of smaller size

I think a mirrorless can get same speed AF so I don't put that as any advantage/disadvantage​.


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10-22 | 16-35/2.8 L II | 20-35 | 24-105 L IS | 28-135 IS | 40/2.8 | 50/1.8 II | 70-200/2.8 L IS | 100/2.8 L IS | 100-400 L IS | Sigma 18-200DC
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pwm2
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Sep 23, 2014 14:10 |  #89

Reservoir Dog wrote in post #17172703 (external link)
Yes i agree, but i'm speaking about the "future" with electronic shutter showing his "nose" (no mechanical parts) like the first curtain on some brand/P&S/etc (just about the "future" ) ;)

While it's possible to have an electronic shutter in the sensor, that would not remove the need for a mechanical shutter. It's nice to have something protecting the sensor when you change lenses. And you want something to protect the sensor from too much light when you have a big tele lens attached. The sun hits us with about 1kW of heat/m2. That's a lot of heat that can enter a 400/2.8 lens and focus on the sensor.


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pwm2
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Sep 23, 2014 14:22 |  #90

gjl711 wrote in post #17173466 (external link)
There are lots of examples where a better solution pretty much killed an existing technology, and some pretty recent examples. Try to go and buy a VCR, or a cassette player, or an 8-track. Vinyl records are about dead. And there are pleanty of examples of technologies that are dying like film, over the air TV, letter writing, the typewriter, and more. If something came along and delivered 1DX performance and quality at 1/2 the cost I think people would abandon the current 1DX in a heartbeat.

But all your examples are part of an eco system where they are depending on a continuous supply of something else.

The market likes to sell new gear instead of having you stay with existing gear. So stop sell VHS, 8-track, ... and you'll get the customers to move too. That's why I mentioned HD-DVD.

A camera doesn't consume lenses. So even if new lenses aren't manufactured, you will still be able to use a camera and buy used lenses.

With VHS, people threw away their tapes instead of selling them used. And we got digital TV which made it logical with digital recording.

Film isn't dying. It's just getting marginalized. As is letter writing.

Over-the-air TV? That isn't going away because people want to switch to something else. The mobile phone industry pays to suck up all the frequencies. So sometimes great-quality OTA TV becomes heavily compressed digital TV without noise but with very irritating compression artifacts.


5DMk2 + BG-E6 | 40D + BG-E2N | 350D + BG-E3 + RC-1 | Elan 7E | Minolta Dimage 7U | (Gear thread)
10-22 | 16-35/2.8 L II | 20-35 | 24-105 L IS | 28-135 IS | 40/2.8 | 50/1.8 II | 70-200/2.8 L IS | 100/2.8 L IS | 100-400 L IS | Sigma 18-200DC
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