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FORUMS Canon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon EOS Digital Cameras 
Thread started 15 Sep 2014 (Monday) 14:16
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7D Mark II vs 5D MIII

 
davesrose
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Sep 20, 2014 07:21 |  #226

gjl711 wrote in post #17166884 (external link)
It's under enthusiast as well. But does it really matter?

Not for me, but it apparently does with some posters;)


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TeamSpeed
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Sep 20, 2014 08:42 |  #227

Lone Rider wrote in post #17166194 (external link)
I think this needs to be clarified for TeamSpeed.

When someone refers to the word 'amateur' it simply means engaging in an activity on an unpaid basis.

Canons website has classified the 7DII for 'enthusiast" level (the same as the 5DIII) however there is nothing stopping a professional using either of these cameras for 'paid' (professional) level work.

If I wanted a camera for portraits, low light, landscapes the 5DIII is the most suitable. Conversely for wildlife or sports the 7dII would be the most suitable. It comes down to personal choice.

If I were an amateur on a budget, I would get any one of the other 3 model lines instead, because $1800 is quite a bit higher than $1100, or any other price tag below that. That is the point I was making. If I were making money (and I do), the 7D2 would be it, because it is at the pinnacle of the Canon crop pyramid, and has everything needed to succeed in the APS-C space. Amateurs on a budget most often buy the Rebel line or the 70D. Enthusiasts (passionate amateurs and those starting to get paid gigs) would up their budget and look to the 70D and 7D2. Pros buy about anything because it matters more about having some options and backups, and whatever fits the bill for them, they will buy, whether an SL1 or a 7D2.

Those wanting a FF and are amateurs on a budget often look at the 5DI or 6D, then the 5D2. The 5D3 is often in their sights, but per your constraint of budget, for many the 5D3 cannot cut it.


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Sep 20, 2014 08:50 |  #228

TeamSpeed wrote in post #17166973 (external link)
If I were an amateur on a budget, I would get any one of the other 3 model lines instead, because $1800 is quite a bit higher than $1100, or any other price tag below that. That is the point I was making. If I were making money (and I do), the 7D2 would be it, because it is at the pinnacle of the Canon crop pyramid, and has everything needed to succeed in the APS-C space. Amateurs on a budget most often buy the Rebel line or the 70D. Enthusiasts (passionate amateurs and those starting to get paid gigs) would up their budget and look to the 70D and 7D2. Pros buy about anything because it matters more about having some options and backups, and whatever fits the bill for them, they will buy, whether an SL1 or a 7D2.

I have been solely using a rebel until the last 2.5 years. If I had one in my hands today, I would not have any issues with them. They are great cameras once you can get speedy navigating with its buttons and menu system.


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Geordie ­ Amanda
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Sep 23, 2014 14:31 |  #229

I've been mulling over this question (5DIII vs 7DII) for a week or so. Of course it's only supposition until we know if the 7DII has noticeably improved IQ etc over it's progenitor.

Here in the UK it's often overcast and as I mainly shoot sports (Kite surfing/Jetskis/Flyboa​rds) I face the eternal struggle of speed vs iso vs reach. I have been using my 7D with the 70-200mm f2.8II + 1.4TC so I'm shooting at about 450mm equivalent at f4. This isn't too bad as I guess with so many pixels on the target, I can crop quite heavily. But recently I bought the 150-600mm Tamron and knock it down to f8 to shoot with. The reach is great, even if my spindly arms struggle with the weight and holding it reasonably still. But, at f8 and the typical British day, I'm always struggling for shutter speed and so push the iso which ultimately means noise and picture degradation. Having read about the 5DIII's AF system and also the 7DII's I am struggling a bit with understanding what these two different systems can do for me. If I have grasped this quandary a little bit, the 7DII should be amazing and the 5DIII is already acknowledged as being excellent, so do you guys think that as I shoot a lot of fast moving but not entirely erratic moving (not like football etc) subjects, the 5D would be able to track the subject easily and although I lose some reach (600mm Tammy is still better than 450mm Canon in that sense) the improved higher iso of a FF would give me the benefit of higher shutter speeds without losing to much IQ.

Naturally the Tammy on a crop sensor has enormous reach, but it's almost more than I need or can use on a windy beach, so a FF might make sense. Please don't start flaming me as I realise that we don't know how good the 7DII's IQ and noise performance will be, but as a general question it has got me thinking. The likelihood is if I can wait long enough, the 7DII will come down in price and I might grab one, but there are some very good offers on at the moment for the 5DIII :) I should add the difference in fps isn't a major problem for the sports I shoot, as it tends to be more fluid than sports using balls etc, this lets me judge when to pull the trigger a little bit easier than many field and contact sports.


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Sep 23, 2014 14:40 |  #230

I am very certain you are going to see an overall 1/2 to 2/3 stop improvement over the 7DI. This improvement will be a mix of 3 things:

- better overall ISO improvement (1/3 stop)
- better noise characteristics with less "sparklies" or black spots (1/3 effective stop)
- slightly sharper more defined detail, possibly due to a weaker AA filter? (1/3 effective stop)

These 3 elements combine for an effective ISO improvement of 2/3 stop. This means you can clean up the noise easier, retain more detail in doing so, and the overall image will feel about 2/3 better when you are finished with processing.

This much I am VERY certain of. Could it be more? Perhaps, by a little. Is this better than the 70D overall? My gut feel and research thus far says not really, from different sources, the noise at high ISO seems very identical between the two. This is the hangup many have, they were hoping that the 7D2 was going to be an improvement over the 70D IQ as well, instead of just concentrating on the 7DI vs 7D2.


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Sep 23, 2014 15:02 |  #231

TeamSpeed wrote in post #17173548 (external link)
... This is the hangup many have, they were hoping that the 7D2 was going to be an improvement over the 70D IQ as well, instead of just concentrating on the 7DI vs 7D2.

Yup.. My hangup exactly. Feature wise this camera is near perfect but once again Canon loads on the features but does not move the ball forward in the IQ department.


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Monkey ­ moss
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Sep 23, 2014 15:11 |  #232

Hello.

I noticed this thread a while ago and thought that my efforts described below may be useful for some considering between the two cameras. My Dad has a 7D and I have a 5Diii, the 7D has a problem with the camera just not wanting to focus (at all) and so its the excuse he needs to get a new camera.

Since I've gone to the 5Diii I've been raving to him how good it is especially its high ISO etc etc. Unfortunately this has converted to a seed which has grown nicely in my Dads head which leads him to believe his 7D sensor is the worst thing in the world and every image is obliterated by 'noise'.

Basically, my Dad and I have both fallen into the trap of taking a photo, and then zooming in as far as we can go in camera to check for sharpness/noise. Its an obsession that I'm trying to stop! And an obsession that sometimes doesn't allow us to see sense!

So to help him choose between 7Dii, and 5Diii, I conducted a little test! I basically took both cameras original 7D and the 5Diii and told him I'd do a few comparison tests, taken in raw, and with the same minimal processing, and then he can see the results on his 37" television, from a sensible viewing distance. I think viewing distance was about 2.5m in the end, he wasn't allowed to get any closer to the screen!!

I labelled them simply 01, 02 etc so he had no idea which photo was from which camera, I had a sheet saying what was taken with what, and what the ISO was.

Most of the comparisons, were between the 7D 15-85, and the 5Diii 24-105. All in raw, same amount of noise reduction (from 1600 up), all taken in manual to try and match exposure, ss and app as best as possible.

We viewed them on the tv and even I was surprised how little difference there were.

ISO, 100-800, no difference. He guessed some right, and some wrong!
ISO, 1600 no difference! Even I couldn't see a difference, Dad guessed correctly but I think it was more luck than judgement. (Caveat, this was with our 70-300L lens and the clarity of this lens is superb, so that probably helped).
ISO 3200, a slight difference, but not a lot! Dad guessed correctly.
ISO 6400, he couldn't see any difference!! I could, and there was a difference, but not as much as you'd think. The fact that he couldn't tell was the biggest surprise.
ISO 12800, this was the first pic where the 5Diii was a clear winner. But again, the 7D image wasn't 'terrible' at that viewing distance.

After I asked Dad to say what he thought the ISO was for the higher ones. I think he panicked a little here (felt like he was back in an exam!!) and gave me some daft answers but they were lots lower than the actual ISO.

We looked on the back of the cameras after and all the 7D images mostly looked grainy again on full zoom in, especially 6400 and 12800!! For the test images I did apply the same noise reduction to both images, but this was pretty basic editing (one slider in Elements).

So, whats the point? Well I think many people are fixated on 100% viewing all the time now, and its not healthy!! Not for us anyway. I have some of my better landscape pictures on the wall, A1 size. We both look at each other pics on the TV. We aren't ever going to the print them bigger.

My caveat, is that I do love the 5Diii, and the cleanliness of the images it produces. I wouldn't change it. And it does make me very happy to pixel peep (still)! And cropping in tight still allows amazing clarity.

But I was surprised by the test. Its helped my Dad anyway. He is now enquiring about the 7Dii.

I appreciate the pros, and others out there have other requirements. This was just meant as a little sense check for others that may be in the same boat as my Dad.

Cheers

PS. forgot how good the 15-85 is, brilliant lens for what it is.


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sploo
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Sep 23, 2014 15:20 |  #233

Geordie Amanda wrote in post #17173530 (external link)
I've been mulling over this question (5DIII vs 7DII) for a week or so. Of course it's only supposition until we know if the 7DII has noticeably improved IQ etc over it's progenitor.

Here in the UK it's often overcast and as I mainly shoot sports (Kite surfing/Jetskis/Flyboa​rds) I face the eternal struggle of speed vs iso vs reach. I have been using my 7D with the 70-200mm f2.8II + 1.4TC so I'm shooting at about 450mm equivalent at f4. This isn't too bad as I guess with so many pixels on the target, I can crop quite heavily. But recently I bought the 150-600mm Tamron and knock it down to f8 to shoot with. The reach is great, even if my spindly arms struggle with the weight and holding it reasonably still. But, at f8 and the typical British day, I'm always struggling for shutter speed and so push the iso which ultimately means noise and picture degradation. Having read about the 5DIII's AF system and also the 7DII's I am struggling a bit with understanding what these two different systems can do for me. If I have grasped this quandary a little bit, the 7DII should be amazing and the 5DIII is already acknowledged as being excellent, so do you guys think that as I shoot a lot of fast moving but not entirely erratic moving (not like football etc) subjects, the 5D would be able to track the subject easily and although I lose some reach (600mm Tammy is still better than 450mm Canon in that sense) the improved higher iso of a FF would give me the benefit of higher shutter speeds without losing to much IQ.

Naturally the Tammy on a crop sensor has enormous reach, but it's almost more than I need or can use on a windy beach, so a FF might make sense. Please don't start flaming me as I realise that we don't know how good the 7DII's IQ and noise performance will be, but as a general question it has got me thinking. The likelihood is if I can wait long enough, the 7DII will come down in price and I might grab one, but there are some very good offers on at the moment for the 5DIII :) I should add the difference in fps isn't a major problem for the sports I shoot, as it tends to be more fluid than sports using balls etc, this lets me judge when to pull the trigger a little bit easier than many field and contact sports.

Skipping over the fact I'm wanting to hear you say "progenitor" with a Geordie accent... ;)...

At the moment are you struggling with AF? I may be mistaken, but I'm assuming that the distance to the target will be fairly large (20 meters?) so even at 600mm f/8 on a crop you have a bit of DOF (that will tolerate mild misfocussing).

I'm going to assume that the 7DII AF system will be competitive with the 5D3, and the 5D3 is quite a step up from the 7D. However, with a FF body you're obviously losing the 1.6x crop factor. If you'd be OK with the reach of the Tammy on FF then you should get at least 1 stop advantage in terms of ISO noise. Having processed a fair few raws from both the 7D and 5D3 I wouldn't quite put it at 2 stops, but probably just over 1.

If AF isn't a big issue, then you might even find that a 6D would be OK. It's also cheaper (than a 5D3), and apparently a little better than the 5D3 for high ISO. Have you considered renting one or both of the bodies to try them out? If you're familiar with the 7D then the 5D3 won't have the learning curve it'd have for someone coming from an xxD body. I've used these guys http://www.lensesforhi​re.co.uk/ (external link) for lenses and would recommend them. They do now stock bodies (both the 5D3 and 6D).

Finally - for the weight of the Tammy, have you considering getting a cheap monopod (possibly with a tilting monopod head)? If nothing else, it takes the weight off your arms between shots.


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sploo
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Sep 23, 2014 15:36 |  #234

Monkey moss wrote in post #17173609 (external link)
Hello.

I noticed this thread a while ago and thought that my efforts described below may be useful for some considering between the two cameras...

Interesting test - though note that unless you have a 4K TV, it'll likely be 1920x1080, which even for a relatively low print resolution of 150dpi would be the equivalent of a print that's only approximately A4 size.

That said, it's a very valid point. When pixel peeping (zooming to 100%) people have to think that (with a decent sized monitor at 1920 pixels horizontal) it's the equivalent to a print of ~1.5m in width (and standing maybe 60cm in front). Realistic for landscape guys, probably not that realistic for many other genres.

Oh yeah, agreed - the 15-85 is a cracking lens for the money.


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Sep 23, 2014 16:27 |  #235

Geordie Amanda wrote in post #17173530 (external link)
I've been mulling over this question (5DIII vs 7DII) for a week or so. Of course it's only supposition until we know if the 7DII has noticeably improved IQ etc over it's progenitor.

Here in the UK it's often overcast and as I mainly shoot sports (Kite surfing/Jetskis/Flyboa​rds) I face the eternal struggle of speed vs iso vs reach. I have been using my 7D with the 70-200mm f2.8II + 1.4TC so I'm shooting at about 450mm equivalent at f4. This isn't too bad as I guess with so many pixels on the target, I can crop quite heavily. But recently I bought the 150-600mm Tamron and knock it down to f8 to shoot with. The reach is great, even if my spindly arms struggle with the weight and holding it reasonably still. But, at f8 and the typical British day, I'm always struggling for shutter speed and so push the iso which ultimately means noise and picture degradation. Having read about the 5DIII's AF system and also the 7DII's I am struggling a bit with understanding what these two different systems can do for me. If I have grasped this quandary a little bit, the 7DII should be amazing and the 5DIII is already acknowledged as being excellent, so do you guys think that as I shoot a lot of fast moving but not entirely erratic moving (not like football etc) subjects, the 5D would be able to track the subject easily and although I lose some reach (600mm Tammy is still better than 450mm Canon in that sense) the improved higher iso of a FF would give me the benefit of higher shutter speeds without losing to much IQ.

Naturally the Tammy on a crop sensor has enormous reach, but it's almost more than I need or can use on a windy beach, so a FF might make sense. Please don't start flaming me as I realise that we don't know how good the 7DII's IQ and noise performance will be, but as a general question it has got me thinking. The likelihood is if I can wait long enough, the 7DII will come down in price and I might grab one, but there are some very good offers on at the moment for the 5DIII :) I should add the difference in fps isn't a major problem for the sports I shoot, as it tends to be more fluid than sports using balls etc, this lets me judge when to pull the trigger a little bit easier than many field and contact sports.

That's a good question. I recall reading a review that the sharpness of the tamron 150-600 was not so sharp on a crop camera and it is substantially sharper on a full frame camera. Now with the 7dii producing a more densely packed pixel count, I wonder if this better sensor can no further improve the quality of the photo. Seemingly, the sensor will only just out resolve the lens even further.


5Diii | 50D | 8-15L 4| 16-35L 2.8 II| 24-70L 2.8 II | 70-200L 2.8 IS II |Tamy 150-600 | Σ35Art 1.4 | 40 2.8 | Σ50Art 1.4 | 85L 1.2 II | 100 2.8 Macro | Helios 44-3 58mm f2.0 |Helios 40-1 85mm f1.5 | 1.4x & 2x teleconverters

  
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Geordie ­ Amanda
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Sep 23, 2014 16:51 |  #236

sploo wrote in post #17173630 (external link)
Skipping over the fact I'm wanting to hear you say "progenitor" with a Geordie accent... ;)...

At the moment are you struggling with AF? I may be mistaken, but I'm assuming that the distance to the target will be fairly large (20 meters?) so even at 600mm f/8 on a crop you have a bit of DOF (that will tolerate mild misfocussing).

I'm going to assume that the 7DII AF system will be competitive with the 5D3, and the 5D3 is quite a step up from the 7D. However, with a FF body you're obviously losing the 1.6x crop factor. If you'd be OK with the reach of the Tammy on FF then you should get at least 1 stop advantage in terms of ISO noise. Having processed a fair few raws from both the 7D and 5D3 I wouldn't quite put it at 2 stops, but probably just over 1.

If AF isn't a big issue, then you might even find that a 6D would be OK. It's also cheaper (than a 5D3), and apparently a little better than the 5D3 for high ISO. Have you considered renting one or both of the bodies to try them out? If you're familiar with the 7D then the 5D3 won't have the learning curve it'd have for someone coming from an xxD body. I've used these guys http://www.lensesforhi​re.co.uk/ (external link) for lenses and would recommend them. They do now stock bodies (both the 5D3 and 6D).

Finally - for the weight of the Tammy, have you considering getting a cheap monopod (possibly with a tilting monopod head)? If nothing else, it takes the weight off your arms between shots.

I have just said 'Progenitor' in my head with my accent ramped up to 11. Yes it does sound quite funny (The Americans will be thinking what the hell are those Limeys going on about :D)

Anyhoo, I don't have a major problem with AF except for the fact that at around 960mm, the Tammy can be hard to track the subject with. I do have a cheap monopod (Verbon), which I have discovered is not man enough for the 7D, it's grip and the Tammy! I also have a problem that I can't use one at the beach as it sinks obviously :( (although I see there are spreaders that can be used.) I like the idea of the tilt head on a decent monpod though, as jetskis are pretty much 2D and so wouldn't be a problem.

Currently I use centre spot with the optional 4 expansion AF points and this just about does what I need, although the AF on the 5Diii and 7Dii both look to have a decent advantage in this regard. I don't think the 6D would cut it in this respect? and the 4.5fps would be getting marginal possibly. It is a good price though at the moment :)
Currently renting looks pretty steep. Calumet want around £100 for a day/weekend.


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Sep 23, 2014 16:52 |  #237

snake0ape wrote in post #17173763 (external link)
That's a good question. I recall reading a review that the sharpness of the tamron 150-600 was not so sharp on a crop camera and it is substantially sharper on a full frame camera. Now with the 7dii producing a more densely packed pixel count, I wonder if this better sensor can no further improve the quality of the photo. Seemingly, the sensor will only just out resolve the lens even further.

How does the Tammy compare on your FF and crop cameras


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Sep 23, 2014 17:00 |  #238

Geordie Amanda wrote in post #17173806 (external link)
How does the Tammy compare on your FF and crop cameras

I haven't used it on my 50d crop except on a moon shot. I have been using the 5diii because I needed the AF for surfing and soccer shoots. And that's another story. I guess I should be doing a compare. Maybe soon.


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Sep 23, 2014 17:04 |  #239

snake0ape wrote in post #17173813 (external link)
I haven't used it on my 50d crop except on a moon shot. I have been using the 5diii because I needed the AF for surfing and soccer shoots. And that's another story. I guess I should be doing a compare. Maybe soon.

Is it a good combination for surfing?


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Sep 23, 2014 17:06 |  #240

Geordie Amanda wrote in post #17173804 (external link)
I have just said 'Progenitor' in my head with my accent ramped up to 11. Yes it does sound quite funny (The Americans will be thinking what the hell are those Limeys going on about :D)

I'm thinking that someone needs to develop a speech website where you can type in words, select an accent, and enjoy ;)

Geordie Amanda wrote in post #17173804 (external link)
Anyhoo, I don't have a major problem with AF except for the fact that at around 960mm, the Tammy can be hard to track the subject with. I do have a cheap monopod (Verbon), which I have discovered is not man enough for the 7D, it's grip and the Tammy! I also have a problem that I can't use one at the beach as it sinks obviously :( (although I see there are spreaders that can be used.) I like the idea of the tilt head on a decent monpod though, as jetskis are pretty much 2D and so wouldn't be a problem.

A small sheet of wood (e.g. a 12" square sheet of 1/2" thick plywood) might be perfect for putting on the beach for a monopod (as long as you weren't moving location that often).

Geordie Amanda wrote in post #17173804 (external link)
Currently I use centre spot with the optional 4 expansion AF points and this just about does what I need, although the AF on the 5Diii and 7Dii both look to have a decent advantage in this regard. I don't think the 6D would cut it in this respect? and the 4.5fps would be getting marginal possibly. It is a good price though at the moment :)
Currently renting looks pretty steep. Calumet want around £100 for a day/weekend.

Difficult to know. I'd assume (with little experience in that sport to be certain) that what you're tracking would be mostly moving side-to-side from your shooting position, so maybe the 6D would do the job. The 5D3 is "only" 6fps, so slower than the 7D.

Renting bodies is pricey, granted. There must be 5D3 and 6D shooters in your area somewhere that might be willing to turn up and let you shoot for a while with their body?


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Photography-on-the.net Digital Photography Forums is the website for photographers and all who love great photos, camera and post processing techniques, gear talk, discussion and sharing. Professionals, hobbyists, newbies and those who don't even own a camera -- all are welcome regardless of skill, favourite brand, gear, gender or age. Registering and usage is free.