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Thread started 07 Mar 2014 (Friday) 06:23
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Is Canon losing the War ?

 
Wilt
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Sep 03, 2014 16:17 |  #286

pwm2 wrote in post #17133625 (external link)
But professionals are a tiny part of the buyers. So what professionals do will not affect these numbers.

Are you ignoring the amatuer who buys a 20D and 5 lenses, then trades the 20D for 30D, then trades the 30D for 40D, then trades 40D for 7D, then trades the 7D for FF 6D, and also sells the two EFS zoom lens for two more suitable EF zoom FL lens for FF?

Total:

  • Five bodies (20D, 30D, 40D, 7D, 6D)
  • Seven lenses (two EFS sold on used market)


Net:
  • One body, five lenses


And then Canon does not count Tamron or Tokina or Sigma sales for lenses that fit their bodies!

Real situation (me, who has NOT shot 'for hire' since digital came out...I am happily an avid hobbist now!)

  • Buy 4 bodies (20D, 30D, 40D, 5D), sold two of them
  • Buy 8 lenses (Canon 17-85mm, Canon 10-16mm, Canon 100mm, Canon 70-200mm f/4, Canon 70-200mm f/4 LIS, Canon 17-55mm,
    Tokina 11-16mm, Tamron 28-70mm) sold three of them
  • Net 2 bodies, 5 lenses.


And then there are many Canon EOS owning film photographers who simply had to buy a new digital body and NO lenses!

As I said, jump to no conclusions based upon ratio of Canon bodies vs. Canon lenses sold!

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EmaginePixel
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Sep 03, 2014 16:44 |  #287

This pretty much sums it up in a nutshell.

https://www.youtube.co​m/watch?v=Jva08HY6uLE (external link)


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pwm2
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Sep 03, 2014 16:46 |  #288

Wilt wrote in post #17133973 (external link)
Are you ignoring the amatuer who buys a 20D and 5 lenses, then trades the 20D for 30D, then trades the 30D for 40D, then trades 40D for 7D, then trades the 7D for FF 6D, and also sells the two EFS zoom lens for two more suitable EF zoom FL lens for FF?

Total:
  • Five bodies (20D, 30D, 40D, 7D, 6D)
  • Seven lenses (two EFS sold on used market)


Net:
  • One body, five lenses


And then Canon does not count Tamron or Tokina or Sigma sales for lenses that fit their bodies!

Real situation (me, who has NOT shot 'for hire' since digital came out...I am happily an avid hobbist now!)

  • Buy 4 bodies (20D, 30D, 40D, 5D), sold two of them
  • Buy 8 lenses (Canon 17-85mm, Canon 10-16mm, Canon 100mm, Canon 70-200mm f/4, Canon 70-200mm f/4 LIS, Canon 17-55mm,
    Tokina 11-16mm, Tamron 28-70mm) sold three of them
  • Net 2 bodies, 5 lenses.


And then there are many Canon EOS owning film photographers who simply had to buy a new digital body and NO lenses!

As I said, jump to no conclusions based upon ratio of Canon bodies vs. Canon lenses sold!

Note that I said EOS bodies and EF lenses. So including EOS film bodies.

And your avid entusiast who steps through the cameras - not too many do. The majority of buyers just buy a single camera and if they do get a second lens it's probably a Tamron or Sigma. But the average user just have one or two lenses. The gear lists seen on this forum is not representative of the average user.


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CRCchemist
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Sep 03, 2014 19:18 |  #289

pwm2 wrote in post #17134024 (external link)
Note that I said EOS bodies and EF lenses. So including EOS film bodies.

And your avid entusiast who steps through the cameras - not too many do. The majority of buyers just buy a single camera and if they do get a second lens it's probably a Tamron or Sigma. But the average user just have one or two lenses. The gear lists seen on this forum is not representative of the average user.

Like mine, for example.




  
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Krichton
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Sep 28, 2014 02:19 |  #290

Is Canon losing the war? Not quite, but they should be. Right now I can get a new 36 mp Nikon D800 for $2000. Canon charges $3400 for the 5dmkiii. The price difference alone is enough to just get a Nikon.




  
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Sep 28, 2014 05:34 |  #291

Krichton wrote in post #17181471 (external link)
Is Canon losing the war? Not quite, but they should be. Right now I can get a new 36 mp Nikon D800 for $2000. Canon charges $3400 for the 5dmkiii. The price difference alone is enough to just get a Nikon.

I paid $2700 new for my D800 earlier this year when I was comparing it to the 5DMIII and $3300. It wasn't the only reason I made the decision to switch, but that initial $600 savings along with a better sensor was one heck of an incentive.


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pwm2
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Sep 28, 2014 05:41 |  #292

Krichton wrote in post #17181471 (external link)
Is Canon losing the war? Not quite, but they should be. Right now I can get a new 36 mp Nikon D800 for $2000. Canon charges $3400 for the 5dmkiii. The price difference alone is enough to just get a Nikon.

They should lose the war? You think that would make it better for everyone else? You think Nikon and Sony will lower their prices or speed up their progression of new technology if they lost Canon as a competitor?


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Wilt
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Sep 28, 2014 10:30 |  #293

How quickly everyone forgets that 'Nikon was losing the war' from when Canon sensors were larger and had lower noise! And Pentax was a nobody in the digital realm.

If wars were won based upon a short period of time alone, the US would be a territory of Japan, and Russia would belong to the German Empire.


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Tom ­ Reichner
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Sep 28, 2014 10:42 |  #294

Krichton wrote in post #17181471 (external link)
Is Canon losing the war? Not quite, but they should be. Right now I can get a new 36 mp Nikon D800 for $2000. Canon charges $3400 for the 5dmkiii. The price difference alone is enough to just get a Nikon.

But the facts you present might actually show that Canon is winning the war.

Typically, the primary objective of a corporation is to earn profits. If Canon is earning greater profits than Nikon, due to charging more for a similar camera, and selling more of that camera than Nikon is selling of their model, then that there is a battle being clearly won by Canon. Yes, really. Because there are so very few who are opting for Nikon instead of Canon (thorrulz is a rare exception). Canon charges more, yet continues to sell much greater numbers of cameras. How is that not winning?

Anyway, if anyone wants some objective facts to use for the argument of who is winning the "war", just look at the info on these links. One is clearly way, way, way ahead of the other:
http://www.canon.com/i​r/finance/highlight.ht​ml (external link)
http://www.nikon.com …pdf/ar2013/13an​nual_e.pdf (external link)


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Glenn ­ NK
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Sep 28, 2014 11:14 |  #295

tkbslc wrote in post #17133307 (external link)
You mention lots of digital examples, but the size of the cameras grew in the 80s and 90s as soon as AF and tech made its way into cameras. The 1D series got it's form from the EOS 1n and old EOS 1 series. The 5D, 7D are kind of extensions of the EOS-3, and D30-50D got it's size from the old Elan line. And the Rebels were just an extension of the film rebels.

So it really has nothing to do with digital. Everyone's cameras grew in the 80s and 90s. I don't know if that was consumer preference, or marketing, or ergonomic design, or limitation of miniaturization or what.

That was pretty well my point; Each successive model was a bit larger (with really no space taking gadgetry added), while the handling virtues were extolled at length. And each review praised the larger grip to make the camera easier to hold. No reviewers ever questioned why the bodies kept growing and AFAIK, no users did either on any forum I've been in.

Then people with APS-C bodies added grips that made them look like pros. Honestly, I think it was driven by vanity.

Canon/Nikon are not fools when it comes to marketing - they knew what "Joe Average" wanted - something big and impressive.

You probably can guess how many and what type of comments I get when I'm out with by 5DII with the f/2.8 70-200 on.

I'm going to suggest that both Nikon and Canon have two of the best marketing groups in the business - and they know what is required to earn a profit. This does not imply that the business models for Canon/Nikon are the same, but the most important part of the business model is to earn a tidy profit, and they both know how to do that.

Is Canon losing the war? It's only losing the war if it fails to generate profits for the shareholders.

Perhaps the OP should have stated, "Is Olympus Losing the War". Great bodies, excellent lenses, and they lose money every year. Now that's what I call success. ;)

And please reread the previous post - #294.

Glenn


When did voluptuous become voluminous?

  
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Glenn ­ NK
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Sep 28, 2014 11:25 |  #296

Krichton wrote in post #17181471 (external link)
Is Canon losing the war? Not quite, but they should be. Right now I can get a new 36 mp Nikon D800 for $2000. Canon charges $3400 for the 5dmkiii. The price difference alone is enough to just get a Nikon.

How long can Nikon make a "better" product that costs less and still remain viable as a corporation?


When did voluptuous become voluminous?

  
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pwm2
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Sep 28, 2014 11:34 |  #297

Glenn NK wrote in post #17182001 (external link)
Then people with APS-C bodies added grips that made them look like pros. Honestly, I think it was driven by vanity.

I tried for a couple of weeks to use a 350D without a grip. It just hurt my little finger too much to try to hold the camera with one of the little finger joints always taking being pressed hard against the corner of the body. A grip was needed - at least for me - to make the camera comfortable. Then I bought grips for the 40D and 5D2 directly with the body just to make sure. The grip makes it very much comfortable to use Canon's hand strap - the disadvantage is that the hand strap doesn't have a quick-release so it isn't easy to remove the grip when wanting a smaller body.

Canon/Nikon are not fools when it comes to marketing - they knew what "Joe Average" wanted - something big and impressive.

I'm not sure I agree. But small only works well when also light. A small body with a long lens or a big flash is not a fun combination.

You probably can guess how many and what type of comments I get when I'm out with by 5DII with the f/2.8 70-200 on.

But those comments are irrelevant to the question of usability and comfort. People makes their comments based on instamatic cameras, P&S cameras and their mobile phones - any DSLR whatever size is "big" in their view.

I'm going to suggest that both Nikon and Canon have two of the best marketing groups in the business - and they know what is required to earn a profit. This does not imply that the business models for Canon/Nikon are the same, but the most important part of the business model is to earn a tidy profit, and they both know how to do that.

But Nikon doesn't really seem to know what is required to earn a profit - they actually have a very hard tome earning a profit.

Is Canon losing the war? It's only losing the war if it fails to generate profits for the shareholders.

Correct sentence should be "a significant - or constantly increasing - profit for the shareholders". It isn't enough with a profit. To buy shares in Canon, the share holders expects a greater-than-average profit. There is no reason to buy shares if you expect them to perform worse-than-average.

Perhaps the OP should have stated, "Is Olympus Losing the War". Great bodies, excellent lenses, and they lose money every year. Now that's what I call success. ;)

And please reread the previous post - #294.

Glenn


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Sep 28, 2014 13:27 |  #298

Glenn NK wrote in post #17182001 (external link)
Then people with APS-C bodies added grips that made them look like pros. Honestly, I think it was driven by vanity.

Glenn

Yeah, adding a grip must be all about cosmetics of the equipment, it would have nothing to do with twice the battery life, more real estate to hold the camera, better balancing when using larger lenses, and the ease of portrait shooting.

Obviously too, there were no grips sold for non 1D FF owners, it was only APS-C owners that bought grips. Or if non 1D FF owners bought grips, they were "posers" too.

Seriously????


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pwm2
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Sep 28, 2014 13:43 |  #299

In the end, no one complains that the 1D-series bodies looks like they do. Because the shape is great for the intended use. A grip is a poor substitute since it's thicker than the grip on an 1-series body.

But if the manufacturers thinks the built-in grip on 1D-series bodies are good - why shouldn't it then be good for people to have a battery grip on their non-1D bodies? Is a white lens on a non-1D body much lighter?


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Sep 28, 2014 14:08 |  #300

Glenn NK wrote in post #17182011 (external link)
How long can Nikon make a "better" product that costs less and still remain viable as a corporation?

Both companies have about same financial situation with imaging products, this year about -10% in sales vs last year (on the whole Canon was in about +20%). Main cause seems to be that smarphones are replacing compact cameras, plus bad EU economy.

It's all online in

Nikon:
http://www.nikon.com/a​bout/ir/ir_library/res​ult/ (external link)

Canon:
http://www.canon.com/i​r/report/index.html (external link)


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