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Thread started 28 Sep 2014 (Sunday) 12:24
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First catwalkshoot with 70-200 2.8LII more difficult than I thought :)

 
CanonYouCan
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Sep 28, 2014 12:24 |  #1

Yesterday I did an outdoor 2hrs catwalkshoot with my 70-200 2.8L II.
As the models move constantly I turned of the IS.

It was a bright sunny day so I worked on ISO 100, sunhood, 580 EXII and f2.8-f4.5 aperture priority.
When I got home I saw I had some shutterspeeds which where too low (1/180,...) at 200mm so a lot of unsharp pics.
The thing it's very difficult to verify the results of the first shots on a small lcd on a sunny day.

So mostly the models walk and sometimes they stop, when thy stop IS is best for still shots, but it would be impossible constantly switching IS on/of :)
I saw online a tip of someone who said to use f4, but I'd better used higher aperture, sometimes 3 or more models came at a time not on the same line.

But as they are walking constantly and the 6D is no AF wonder, i'd better used higher apertures, about 350 pics left of the 1100...


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agv8or
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Sep 28, 2014 12:50 |  #2

Why would you turn IS off? Leave IS on and use AI Servo for your focus mode. Use rear button focus so that you can continually hold focus while you meter separately with your shutter button. If your shutter speeds are too slow then increase your ISO by a stop or two.


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FEChariot
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Sep 28, 2014 12:59 |  #3

I almost never turn IS off. The only time I do is on a tripod and only if I am doing long exposures like 30 seconds. All my IS lenses are newer generations that can detect a tripod so I don't even really need to do that. Even if you are shooting at 1/4000", IS will stabilize your viewfinder to track your subject. I would tape a piece of duct tape to your IS on off switch with it in the on position just in case you get that idea again.


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gremlin75
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Sep 28, 2014 13:04 |  #4

Couple things come to mind.

1. Why turn off IS? Unless you're in a tripod there really isn't much reason to turn it off. Yes it's only helpful for stationary subjects but it doesn't hurt to have it on unless you're panning quickly (like in motorsports) at which point some lenses have ISO mode 2 for panning (I forget if the 70-200 II has it)

2. Keep an eye on your your shutter speed and don't be afraid of bumping your ISO. Noise is a lot easier to fix then blur.

3. When using flash I'd really suggest using manual mode. In aperture priorty the camera treats the flash as just a full light and will drop the shutter speed lower then you may want.

4. Why were you using flash? Trying to use it as a fill light or main light? (It's not wrong to use flash, just curious why you were)

5. What AF mode were you in? With anything that's moving I use Ai servo.




  
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Sep 28, 2014 13:07 |  #5

Strange post. Looking at your gear list, I feel like I must be overlooking some key information. Is the 6D AF really that slow?

There are lots of things more difficult to hold focus on than models slinking down a catwalk. Like just about any sport, for instance.

Did you try using high speed sync for your flash? And manual exposure control? Or at least, ETTL on camera Manual?


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MalVeauX
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Sep 28, 2014 13:23 |  #6

Heya,

Everything here was technique and experience. Not equipment. Not trying to be cheeky or rude. But nailing sharp images of walking adults with F2.8 telephoto zooms and a 6D is extremely easy.

Very best,


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LondonRob
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Sep 28, 2014 13:38 |  #7

I've worked on catwalk shows and by and large the productions' lighting should allow for the following, in respect of photographers:
ISO 500. 1/500th and f5.6.

Minimal noise, especially on a 6d.
Action freezing shutter speed.
Sufficient dof for a slow moving human body.

I'm an average catwalk snapper but I've stood alongside guys who are selling their shots to Vogue as they shoot,
and they all run with this approach. Most with 70-200s too.
Flash is something I and they leave at home.

If you cannot achieve these figures (due to production lighting you have had no hand in) like it says above let iso be your light provider,
maybe drop shutter to focal length plus 50%. 1/320 for example.

You cannot ever fix a picture with motion blur or out of focus subjects. I've shot catwalk at iso 1000 and the results from a mkiii have been great.
Even better with a 6d I'd imagine.




  
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Sep 28, 2014 13:39 |  #8
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I agree with Malveaux. In addition, I would have started at ISO 1600, direct flash, HSS engaged, 1/250, f/4, BBAF, AI-Servo, +1/3 FEC, Manual mode. I believe ISO 100 was the biggest boo-boo.


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ejenner
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Sep 28, 2014 13:46 as a reply to  @ GeoKras1989's post |  #9

With a FF sensor for something like this (moving subjects), I wouldn't think of going below ISO200 - the difference between than and 100 is negligible, so I would always go for a higher SS. And I'd probably start at ISO400 and only reduce if my SS is up near 1/1000s or more. And as other have mentioned I'd go higher is necessary.

And use HSS. How if HSS isn't giving you enough power, then you wouldn't have much choice since you are maxxed out - or close to sync.


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CanonYouCan
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Sep 28, 2014 13:48 |  #10

1 I turned IS of as the models where reasonable fast walking, I thought IS wouldn't be that fast to stabilise with the 6D.
It was my first catwalk shoot, next time i'll keep IS on.

2 Actually I started with ISO 200 but I had lowered it to 100 as it was such a sunny day the stage and air where too white allready.

3 Correct, flash settings were ETTL automatically

4 I like flash to have clean bright faces & catchlights, I had some pics without flash and underexposed faces, when cranking up the brightness this results in more noise, I try to prevent this in faces.

5 Yes AI Servo (even with a 6D :) )

I only had 2 pair of 4 AA's with me, just used ETTL, HSS eats battery's very fast, my first ones where allready fast empty and burning hot...
Just found out that only the central AF point only was on from the shots I took from my daughter the day before... didn't check this, I'd better had more AF on...

It was a hectic day, shooting + keep an eye on my young daughter in the mass if she sat nicely still on the chair, my wife was off to work so I had no babysit.

gremlin75 wrote in post #17182166 (external link)
Couple things come to mind.

1. Why turn off IS? Unless you're in a tripod there really isn't much reason to turn it off. Yes it's only helpful for stationary subjects but it doesn't hurt to have it on unless you're panning quickly (like in motorsports) at which point some lenses have ISO mode 2 for panning (I forget if the 70-200 II has it)

2. Keep an eye on your your shutter speed and don't be afraid of bumping your ISO. Noise is a lot easier to fix then blur.

3. When using flash I'd really suggest using manual mode. In aperture priorty the camera treats the flash as just a full light and will drop the shutter speed lower then you may want.

4. Why were you using flash? Trying to use it as a fill light or main light? (It's not wrong to use flash, just curious why you were)

5. What AF mode were you in? With anything that's moving I use Ai servo.


Sony A7 III | Metabones V | Canon 17-40 F4 L | 24-70 2.8 L | 70-200 2.8L II
Sigma 50 1.4 Art | Sigma 85 1.4 Art

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l89kip
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Sep 28, 2014 13:56 |  #11

CanonYouCan wrote in post #17182105 (external link)
I saw online a tip of someone who said to use f4, but I'd better used higher aperture, sometimes 3 or more models came at a time not on the same line.


Didn't that means you need to use lower aperture in that case to avoid shallow DOF?

Maybe I miss something here.


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CanonYouCan
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Sep 28, 2014 14:17 |  #12

Yes but that was a tip from a catwalkshooter I found on Dpreview, he mentionned f4 was the settings he used in general, next time i'll use f8 :)
More focuspoints had also been better... anyway it was a nice learning school for next time (no paid job, just for fun).

l89kip wrote in post #17182251 (external link)
Didn't that means you need to use lower aperture in that case to avoid shallow DOF?

Maybe I miss something here.


Sony A7 III | Metabones V | Canon 17-40 F4 L | 24-70 2.8 L | 70-200 2.8L II
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JeffreyG
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Sep 28, 2014 15:15 |  #13

My quick take is that you were just kind of guessing and had not really planned the shoot, and so your results were not good. I have a couple suggestions:

1) Av mode (and Tv, P etc) are not a replacement for properly metering a scene. If I'm shooting in varied lighting I will use an auto-metered mode, but I meter and set up the cameras same as when I'm going to shoot in M mode. The key is to identify the worst case lighting (darkest and brightest) that you can expect in the shoot and make sure you will not be running out of bounds for shutter speed (or aperture in Tv) at those limits.

When you don't do this, you can get what you experienced, the camera meter running out of the range you expected.

2) You should develop a feel for the DOF that you will get when you frame people from tight (headshot) to loose (full body) with different apertures. Then you can pick your aperture from background and not some guy on the internet who said 'f/4 is good'.

I will also suggest that when you want multiple people in a shot and they are not carefully posed in a line, you generally need all the DOF you can get.


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CanonYouCan
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Sep 28, 2014 15:49 as a reply to  @ JeffreyG's post |  #14

Well 350 sharp pics is more than enough (posting 50 is allready much on a website).

Yes manual is always best but then you have to change so much settings, don't forget in a catwalk models walk mixed in a line next to each other and a few moments later in a group after each other.
For example first kids with the family walking behind them.

Changing the manual settings constantly is a big hectic seen the number of people comming on stage constantly.
Shooting at f11 or maximum the whole show would have been safest to have everything sharp, but that's like shooting with a phone when everything is flat sharp.

I have the feel for the dof, but the pace was too fast to change manual settings constantly.
There were some shots I switched from f4 to f2.8 for a fast portrait isolation, then back to f8,...

Catwalks are really challenging, you tried one yet yourself? If not you must try it :)


Sony A7 III | Metabones V | Canon 17-40 F4 L | 24-70 2.8 L | 70-200 2.8L II
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gonzogolf
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Sep 28, 2014 15:57 |  #15

If the light isn't changing there isn't any need to constantly change your manual settings. One of the downsides to av is meter bias because of light or dark outfits in light that doesn't change.




  
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