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FORUMS Photography Talk by Genre Sports Talk 
Thread started 23 Nov 2013 (Saturday) 08:53
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Getting kicked off our own sideline.

 
JM ­ Photos
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Aug 05, 2014 23:18 |  #76

chrisnosleep wrote in post #17079092 (external link)
LOL, I didn't start this thread. Does anyone read through these before posting something?

Sorry, I didn't mean start the thread. I was referring back to you bickering with FlyingWolf as if it was the OP. My bad.


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chrisnosleep
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Aug 05, 2014 23:18 |  #77

You really should read through this thread. Until wolf posted, there were some pretty good conversations and arguments on both sides.




  
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JM ­ Photos
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Aug 05, 2014 23:22 |  #78

chrisnosleep wrote in post #17079098 (external link)
You really should read through this thread. Until wolf posted, there were some pretty good conversations and arguments on both sides.

I did read through the thread. Calling you the OP was a honest mistake. And wolf's comments were spot on.


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chrisnosleep
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Aug 05, 2014 23:26 |  #79

JM Photos wrote in post #17079110 (external link)
I did read through the thread. Calling you the OP was a honest mistake. And wolf's comments were spot on.

How can anyone be spot on when they're bipolar about the topic for which they speak? :rolleyes:




  
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Pekka
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Aug 06, 2014 09:08 |  #80

Now, please all behave and do not resort to personal attacks or insults. Thank you.


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calvin3
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Sep 27, 2014 18:25 as a reply to  @ Pekka's post |  #81

OP here...WOW what happen to this thread?

Little update - I am now the "official" team photographer.
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I get to the field around 8:15 - 8:30 and leave sometime after 6:00 most Saturday's. Shoot all four divisions football and cheerleaders (Starts, Rookies, JV and Varsity). 200-400 shots per game - provide social media updates at every half and final score. Get home and start editing. Post anywhere from 15-40 pictures per division (yes I have a lot of no posts). All four divisions are posted within 24 hours. I got a half price discount on my sons registration this season. I get no other pay and I am perfectly happy with that. I get to watch a great group of kids and coaches have fun every Saturday and have created lifelong friendships.

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Methodical
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Oct 04, 2014 09:32 |  #82

joedlh wrote in post #16474568 (external link)
Who owns the field? If the league owns the field, then they are within their rights to restrict photography. If it's public property like a high school and the school has no restrictions, then I think legally the league has no right to say that you can't stand there and take pictures. But I'm not a lawyer.

This sure sounds like somebody's trying to get the inside track to monetize something that was previously free. Lots of people would find this despicable.

Even though it's public, they can restrict anyone they want. They can always sight a safety concern. Here in MD, they have police at the game and they keep them moving along off the sidelines and I like that because folks get angry at bad calls and we don't want things getting out of hand.

Here in MD, the HS championship games are restricted and I must obtain credentials from the MPSSA to enter the field and obtain their permission to sell any images. It's there rules and believe they enforce them.


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Oct 04, 2014 10:30 as a reply to  @ Methodical's post |  #83

chrisnosleep wrote in post #16528213 (external link)
...Coming from a parents perspective, I don't think a "pro" quite understands what my needs are. Not every kid on those teams are going to be the "star" athlete who always has the ball. Thus the "non-star" athletes often times don't even get photographed by the "pro's" who are only looking to make a buck(ok, several bucks) off the star shots...

I definitely know where you are coming from and that's why I shoot everyone, the punter, field goal kicker, holder, lineman. I show everyone some love because you never know who will buy.

I also understand about the finance concern, however, I do find it very interesting when parents claim they can't afford something, yet I see their kids with $2-300 shoes or they are sporting a high end car. So, while that argument holds true for some, for others its BS.

chrisnosleep wrote in post #16571104 (external link)
...And then using the whole insurance, "taking out a knee", crap. If you've had a kid in sports in the last 20 years or so, then you would know there is NO insurance for ANYONE...

I think you misunderstood the insurance comment. It's referring to the photographer getting hurt on the sidelines and possibly suing.

What it comes down to is competition.

As far as competition, sorry there's no competing with "free." There is none. No one can compete with "free." To make thing fair and competitive. You put up your best image and the pro put up their best image for sell (same price) and then you have a fair competition; winner takes all.

If folks put themselves in others shoes, they may see the light.

To put things in perspective. Imagine your job being outsourced to China, which is a reality these days, and now you can possibly vision the photographer's position.

Or, imagine you had a business providing a service, but someone decides to provide that service for free just because in direct competition with your business. You probably won't survive for long.



One thing I've learned and have kept with me and pass on to other photographers on the sideline is don't give your images away for free, even if you just charge $2 or barter and exchange. Just don't give it away for free because you will have a hard time ever getting them to pay in the future because they don't view it as having value. Many of us who were new struggled with that concept because we thought our work was not up to snuff to charge. If that's the case, then use that as a learning tool, but don't give it away for free; get something (grass cut, dinner, lunch etc.).
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Oct 05, 2014 08:53 |  #84

calvin3 wrote in post #17180959 (external link)
OP here...WOW what happen to this thread?

Little update - I am now the "official" team photographer.
Webmaster redesigned and update - Social media - graphic designer.

Congrats


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Luxx
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Oct 07, 2014 13:28 |  #85

as a pwac I give my photos to my kids' teammates for free but it is still worth something to me. It engenders a lot of good will..makes it easier to get rides etc for my kids which has real value. Hopefully that good will also transfers to my children and helps them a little bit. I also get to practice and get better. Finally, if I'm taking pictures of other people's kids and not giving them the photos...it seems a little icky.




  
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flyingwolf
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Oct 07, 2014 17:58 |  #86

Luxx wrote in post #17199450 (external link)
as a pwac I give my photos to my kids' teammates for free but it is still worth something to me. It engenders a lot of good will..makes it easier to get rides etc for my kids which has real value. Hopefully that good will also transfers to my children and helps them a little bit.

This is exactly the problem though.

Do you have a team photographer? If not then you aren't hurting anyone, if you do then you are directly stealing from him/her, there is no nice way to put it.

Luxx wrote in post #17199450 (external link)
I also get to practice and get better.

Which is a fine thing to do, but would you be OK with practicing at a wedding and giving the bride and groom all of your pictures for free, or would you realise that you just stole from the official photographer?

Luxx wrote in post #17199450 (external link)
Finally, if I'm taking pictures of other people's kids and not giving them the photos...it seems a little icky.

And here we go. Why, why is it icky? Does taking photos make you a pedophile? Is that how you view yourself? Kids aren't sexual, if you see sexuality in kids that's YOUR problem, not mine.

I shoot because the kids deserve good photos. The ones the league have are very old and outdated. I shoot because I love the game and I love photography.


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Luxx
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Oct 07, 2014 18:35 |  #87

Wow rough response dude. Look at my other posts and take it down a notch. There is no official photographer. When I'm at tournaments I stay out of the way of the professionals. Usually individuals or teams pay up front for the professional to take photos at the event. One assumes the photogs photos are enough better than mine that people will pay the difference though I don't know of anyone on my kids team who has paid the professionals.

I have taken photos at some events including a rehearsal dinner but never a wedding and I don't consider myself remotely good enough to do that...it's not getting a good photo of the bride and groom that I find hard...it's the whole day...the process...all the different venues...dealing with relatives and drunkards and the officiant etc.

that being said I truly wish I'd brought my gear to my brother's wedding. I was not impressed with the professionals photos and they left so early...oh well. Meanwhile my sister-in-laws wedding photographer was amazing. Great photos and made the whole day smoother and better.

Taking photos of people without their permission is an invasion of privacy as far as I'm concerned. I think that is an even bigger deal with children who deserve added protections.

Come on James that was uncalled for...I'm a pediatrician and have taken care of abused children




  
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flyingwolf
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Oct 07, 2014 19:25 |  #88

Luxx wrote in post #17200127 (external link)
Wow rough response dude. Look at my other posts and take it down a notch. There is no official photographer. When I'm at tournaments I stay out of the way of the professionals. Usually individuals or teams pay up front for the professional to take photos at the event. One assumes the photogs photos are enough better than mine that people will pay the difference though I don't know of anyone on my kids team who has paid the professionals.

I wasn't rough, if the truth is rough then you need to stay inside.

If I read you right you have pros working, you take pictures, give them for free and don't know anyone who has paid the pro. At the risk of being rough, no **** sherlock. No one is going to pay for pictures if you are giving them away for free.

Luxx wrote in post #17200127 (external link)
I have taken photos at some events including a rehearsal dinner but never a wedding and I don't consider myself remotely good enough to do that...it's not getting a good photo of the bride and groom that I find hard...it's the whole day...the process...all the different venues...dealing with relatives and drunkards and the officiant etc.

Have you taken the photos when there was an official photographer?

Would you be perfectly fine if a local pediatrician opened up directly beside you and did every single service you do but did it for free, and made sure to come over and tel all of your patients that he does what you do but does it for free because he likes the practice?

Would you be fine with it or would you be slightly annoyed to say the least.

Luxx wrote in post #17200127 (external link)
that being said I truly wish I'd brought my gear to my brother's wedding. I was not impressed with the professionals photos and they left so early...oh well.

Did you ask to see why they left early? Perhaps they were paid to be there for a certain time, I know personally I have half a full day packages along with hourly packages. So they may have simply left when they were done.

Luxx wrote in post #17200127 (external link)
Meanwhile my sister-in-laws wedding photographer was amazing. Great photos and made the whole day smoother and better.

And would you have ever dreamt of standing up, walking down the aisle and taking photos beside the paid photographer?

Luxx wrote in post #17200127 (external link)
Taking photos of people without their permission is an invasion of privacy as far as I'm concerned.

What you feel and what the law says are two totally different things. You have no expectation is public. If you are in public and you get mad about someone taking pictures of you the problem is on you, not the photographer, they are legal.

Luxx wrote in post #17200127 (external link)
I think that is an even bigger deal with children who deserve added protections.

Well then, the children need to stay indoors and out of public spaces. Look, I am all for privacy, I am all for respecting others, but the simple truth is that you have no expectation of privacy when in public. I am also not willing to limit the rights of photographers in order to give people the illusion of safety.

If you are out there to take photos of your kids, then do so. Have fun, if you are taking photos of other people's kids and giving them away and therefore stealing from a local photographer trying to ply his trade then you are a jerk and deserve every bit of vitriol he or she may direct towards you.

You keep arguing but I have already put down the two scenarios, either you are stealing from a local working tog, or you aren't. If there is one there and you are taking shots and giving them away then you are stealing from them.

Luxx wrote in post #17200127 (external link)
Come on James that was uncalled for...I'm a pediatrician and have taken care of abused children

It wasn't uncalled for at all, YOU are the one that feels icky taking pictures, I don't. This means that YOU are the one assigning that feeling towards kids, that is on you, I will not adjust my actions based on your feelings.

I volunteer for NILMDTS, I shoot kids sports fee free, I participate in near monthly charity events and I give back to my community every chance I get. None of this makes me any better than you. Being a pediatrician does not absolve you of critical thinking skills.

The little trick of looking up my public profile, going to my website and using my real name rather than my forum handle is nice though, but those little tricks don't work on me, and you can stop prank calling me now.


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Luxx
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Oct 07, 2014 19:54 |  #89

Again your response is over the top and not remotely necessary. I hope you are successful in your photography.

I understand what is legal vs what is ethical. Instead of icky I should have said it was a bad idea. I can only assume you felt me using icky implied you were exactly what you accused me of and that led to your over the top response.

I think taking photos of someone without their permission is wrong. I understand that my opinion is likely a minority opinion on a photog forum but I know I don't like people taking photos of me without my permission regardless of whether it is legal. There is a lot of space between allowing children outside and having their every move taped by a stranger. Maybe playing outside and having a photographer ask permission to take their pictures could be a reasonable middle ground.

As for looking up your website...you put the link there. A cool trick would be able to figure it out from your posts which would probably not be too hard. I was just trying for a pattern interrupt in hopes you'd take it down a notch. But you're right. It didn't work.

I promise I haven't made a prank call in 30 years.




  
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Sibil
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Oct 07, 2014 20:47 as a reply to  @ Luxx's post |  #90

A Guy/Parent With a Camera is such a sensitive topic. The photography environment has changed where folks can afford good enough gear to take satisfactory pictures. Pros like to stick to the old business model where their pro-level gear (and of course their skills) ruled the game. The gap between the pro-level gear/performance, and the amateur gear/performance keep narrowing.




  
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Getting kicked off our own sideline.
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