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FORUMS Photography Talk by Genre Sports Talk 
Thread started 23 Nov 2013 (Saturday) 08:53
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Getting kicked off our own sideline.

 
flyingwolf
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Oct 07, 2014 20:54 |  #91

Photography, and in particular photographers rights are a passion of mine. Perhaps it is that passionate response you are picking up on.

If you are offended I am sorry, I am blunt and I am honest, many times I know that comes across differently in text as it does in person. For that I apologize.

You say you are not the one calling, I believe you. But for the person that is calling, the next time the phone rings from a blocked number, I have an air horn waiting for you.

There is one thing I want to "flip the script" on so to speak. You make the following statement.

Maybe playing outside and having a photographer ask permission to take their pictures could be a reasonable middle ground.

Photography is every bit a right as is free speech. Would you ever think to ask a person to ask you permission before they spoke with another within ear shot of you?

I understand how you feel, and maybe it was the use of the word icky that ruffled my feathers, I have had to go to court lately with my own neighbors who have accused me of being a child molester because I have a security camera setup on the front of my home. I then got to explain to an aged judge why his interpretation of the 1st amendment was not only different than SCOTUS, but flat out unconstitutional which made for an interesting court case and a pissed off judge. A case which thankfully went my way despite the judges lack of ability to understand that death threats via text are every bit as valid as via speech and in fact are more damning given their traceability.

Perhaps I am a bit touchy, but the simple matter is, if there is a paid tog on the field, and you are asked not to be on the field but do so anyway and then in turn give away images the photog would have been able to sell to help raise money for the league, that's just downright wrong.


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flyingwolf
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Oct 07, 2014 20:57 |  #92

Sibil wrote in post #17200399 (external link)
A Guy/Parent With a Camera is such a sensitive topic. The photography environment has changed where folks can afford good enough gear to take satisfactory pictures. Pros like to stick to the old business model where their pro-level gear (and of course their skills) ruled the game. The gap between the pro-level gear/performance, and the amateur gear/performance keep narrowing.

Keep in mind, you can buy a 12 burner gas range and equip yourself with every single high end appliance available, but you still aren't Gordon Ramsay.

There is still a lot of skill involved. Sure being there is a large part of it, but also knowing where to be, studying plays to know when to be near the end zone for the end run, but not getting there too soon and giving the opposing coach a heads up about what's about to happen etc. You have to be able to anticipate the plays, if you wait until you see the play to snap the shutter you are going to miss it, you have to KNOW what is going to happen thanks to years of experience and a lot of practice.

There will always be a gap, no matter the cost or availability of gear.


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Luxx
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Oct 07, 2014 21:28 |  #93

My guess is that as I get better I will take 100 shots in a game and get 10 good ones and 1 great one. That great one is as good as any professional. However, I can't take 300 shots per game 10 games a day for two days over the course of a tournament and get 50 good ones and 10 great ones per game. The reason I don't pose a threat to a professional is that I'm not a professional.

I admit that I've occasionally shot the same game as a professional. He comes and takes photos of the kids he's been paid to shoot and then moves on to the next game. I stay out of his way though might say hello and compliment his gear. Might tell him to watch a certain number when he goes for a header or that someone else always spins right etc. 99 times out of 100 there is no professional. If he gets a better picture of my kid than I do I might just buy it. Oh and there is nothing icky about him shooting. When you sign up for the tournament they let you know there will be photographers.

You would consider this stealing. I consider it taking pictures of my kids and their friends. We disagree. But to be frank I'm not good enough to be a threat.




  
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Sibil
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Oct 07, 2014 22:16 |  #94

flyingwolf wrote in post #17200418 (external link)
There will always be a gap, no matter the cost or availability of gear.

Very true. Just that the availability of better gear does narrow that gap, somewhat.




  
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flickserve
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Oct 08, 2014 22:01 |  #95

In UK, you would have to be very careful about taking photos of kids. The whole issue is very sensitive.

I think both the parent and the paid photographer need to show each other some mutual respect.

But ultimately, IMHO, the paid photographer will have to adjust to market trends. If it is not profitable, he or she would have to find a different project.

The league or whatever would need to make a decision whether it pays for some sort of quality for the photos by hiring a "pro " or depend on the goodwill of parents. Neither is truly reliable but you would like to think paying for photos gives a little sense of security.

I can see the arguments if there are safety issues or insurance issues. Parents should respect those as they should other parents around them. It really gets on my grate to see the tablet held up in the air blocking my view for extended periods of time.




  
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Ephur
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Oct 09, 2014 01:10 |  #96

I am really glad that this thread was brought back from the dead, it has given me a lot to think about as this is my son's first year in football and I've recently become the PWC. My situation certainly doesn't match up with the ones here for two distinct reasons.

1: I don't have any special access, and because I'm not covered by our teams liability insurance must remain in spectator areas only.

2: Our team does not contract or have on staff a professional photographer, although there is another PWC who does have on the field access as she is a board member on our teams organization.

I am the one parent who consistently shares high quality photographs with our team (via a team site on shutterfly, but they are also in my Flickr photostream, PLUG!), but I am fare from the only PWC. Each game there are parents snapping phone pics, or using smaller P&S cameras to capture images from the game, I am just the only one who gets up and walks around, I am careful to avoid standing in front of others, and ensure I don't inhibit other parents from what is the primary purpose of all of us parents who are there: enjoying watching our sons crush each other!!! What makes one PWC (parent with Canon) different than another PWC (Parent with camera). Do the pros also feel equally upset by the iPhone users snapping potatoes, er, I mean pictures?

I may take hundreds of photos, but only keep and post about 50. I take many of my kid (of course!) and try and cover the action on the field (which means there's certainly parents who don't see as many of their kid, something this thread made me think about more. I had thought about it, but not paid to much attention to it, instead trying to capture the action!).

For me, the bottom line is I would be upset if one day I was told I could not take pictures of my son (no cameras, just like no bottles of water, so we can sell you ours). I pay a lot to support the organization as well, donate, particpate in fund raising, and give my most valuable asset: MY CHILD. In exchange for this, I expect to be able to take pictures of him playing a game.

I am sensitive to the financial needs of our team, because we definitely need to raise more money! Perhaps a sports photographer is a good way to do it. I would welcome a contract photographer who put the time and money into getting good shots, and was given special on the field access to get the shots that I am unable. I would buy from him, and I would encourage others to do the same. I however, think that just because I'm a PWC, I should not be restricted from viewing the game, and photographing it from standard viewing areas just because a paid photographer is around. I believe it's that persons job to create VALUE for both the parents and the organization. Not just be granted access and exclusive rights. If a volunteer PWC creates more value than a professional, the professional should reconsider what he is doing. The earlier analogies in this thread are silly... I would welcome the pediatrician into my neighborhood who was 'practicing' and when my child needed a sports physical, I'd let him get that practice, but when he's running a 104 degree fever and in pain at three in the morning, I'm gonna pay the pro to give me the VALUE that the guy practicing, and getting better, just can't deliver.




  
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flyingwolf
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Oct 09, 2014 03:29 |  #97

Ephur,

This thread is long but it is not about cameras in the stands. It is about parents with cameras coming down to the field and taking pictures.

Take all the shots from the stands you want, share them as you wish, have fun and enjoy it.

But if you have been asked to stay off the field and you do so anyway then you end up with the same rules we have on our league. No one on the field without a badge, get caught doing it more than once and face having your family barred from further participation.

You are there to enjoy the children playing the game, not to take pictures.

The problem is that in many places you will have 5 or 6 PWC's on the field, 3 coaches, team mom (also usually with a camera) and medical. At this point you almost have more parents than kids on the field. It is a distraction for the kids and it makes seeing over the parents on the sidelines nearly impossible.


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Talley
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Oct 09, 2014 03:38 |  #98

Good thread with good info and very diverse opinions from both sides of the party.

I'm slowly getting into this situation as my kids are growing. I'm not a pro and never will be because my main source of income satisfies my needs as a standard of living. With 4 kids having job security with my main source of income is very fulfilling. To begin in photography as a paid source of income would add much stress and is something I'm not interested in.

As a PWC... if there is paid "Pro" at the event i always contribute. I may purchase prints and/or CDs but I always contribute.... and I always shoot out of the way from the back wall or the stands or whatever.... even when there is a "no photography" announcement I will continue to shoot

Sorry if that pisses anyone off.... and sorry if that is legally wrong... sorry if it's offensive to do so but I will continue to shoot MY kid. I have the right to. Want to challenge that right... My kids will play somewhere else. Enough said. I do so again out of the way with high respect for the paid pro's and I always contribute. To me that sort of a key, an access... I mean what can you gripe about... I paid.

Now... The reason I feel this way? Because my kids are young. under 10. I have yet to see any "pro" that can match the quality of images I can create. Maybe this will change when I get into high school.... college even.... oh WAIT...

did I say High school and College??? Ohhhhhh yaaaaaaa..... hmmmm..... I see good work out of the "Pro's" there. Unlike the grainy, underexposed crap you "Pro's" provide at the 5yr-10yr age groups.....

why?...

Because simply most are not "Pro".... they are entry level armature pro's who just learned how to get off the green box...

why?....

Pro's who make a living and produce images that the "Media" desire do so at the competative level that gets high exposure to the "Media".

Sorry... I just don't see how pro's even desire to be at the younger groups that are flooded with PWC and don't create the demand for "Commercial" market images.

I mean isn't that what Pro's want?... their images in the magazines? (media exposure/finacial gains) Thats why you see tons of Pro's at the big events and maybe one guy at a league tournament.

in the end I think I just confused myself with this rambling.... /the end


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Sibil
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Oct 09, 2014 07:40 as a reply to  @ Talley's post |  #99

Yes, both sides have good points to argue about, and both sides feel very strong about their points.
I too have been disappointed by the pro work, and that's part of the reason I insist on taking my own shots.
For example, one of my kids was taking part in an out-of-town basketball tournament last year. One of the organizing committee members approached me and told me not to bother bringing my camera since they had hired a pro and that they wouldn't let me take any pictures. I didn't bother travelling with the team, just to save money. Two months later, I received a CD of the pro's work. There was not a single sharp picture on that CD. I checked the EXIF of the pics. The pro used a 40D, 24-105 @ f/4, in Sports Mode, to shoot the tournament. Imagine that. I had parents ask me what had happened. I am not saying that all pros produce work like this. But, in my experience, most younger youth sports attrack pros that are not any better than an experienced PWC.




  
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Ephur
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Oct 09, 2014 09:55 |  #100

flyingwolf wrote in post #17202963 (external link)
The problem is that in many places you will have 5 or 6 PWC's on the field, 3 coaches, team mom (also usually with a camera) and medical. At this point you almost have more parents than kids on the field. It is a distraction for the kids and it makes seeing over the parents on the sidelines nearly impossible.

I feel very fortunate now... in our area there are the usual folks on the field (chain gang, refs, coaches) but very few people are allowed on the field (including team moms...). If they added a photographer to the mix that would be fine, but I am certainly thankful that they minimize the people on the sidelines. Less distractions for the kids, means fewer injuries for them.

That also gives more perspective, and for me that's what this thread has been most useful for :) Happy to see so much open conversation, hopefully it doesn't continue to devolve into name calling though!




  
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Luxx
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Oct 09, 2014 20:39 |  #101

Where I live typically soccer has one side for kids benches and the other for spectators. Rarely are there stands. As a parent you are supposed to stay on your sideline. That being said if you have a big camera lens you can usually go where you want and if you don't yell at kids or the refs most of the time no one cares even if you are on the kids sideline. I've only been asked once ever to move and it was because some jerk had been asked to move. The ref then apologized for asking me to move but he felt if he asked that guy he had to have everyone else move too. I smiled and complied. Next game with the same ref he made a point of coming over and saying he didn't mind where I stood and thanked me for being so understanding at the previous game. Professional photos usually camp between the kids benches. I've never taken photos from there though I've helped coach occasionally.




  
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flickserve
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Oct 09, 2014 21:17 |  #102

Sibil wrote in post #17203156 (external link)
Yes, both sides have good points to argue about, and both sides feel very strong about their points.
I too have been disappointed by the pro work, and that's part of the reason I insist on taking my own shots.
For example, one of my kids was taking part in an out-of-town basketball tournament last year. One of the organizing committee members approached me and told me not to bother bringing my camera since they had hired a pro and that they wouldn't let me take any pictures. I didn't bother travelling with the team, just to save money. Two months later, I received a CD of the pro's work. There was not a single sharp picture on that CD. I checked the EXIF of the pics. The pro used a 40D, 24-105 @ f/4, in Sports Mode, to shoot the tournament. Imagine that. I had parents ask me what had happened. I am not saying that all pros produce work like this. But, in my experience, most younger youth sports attrack pros that are not any better than an experienced PWC.

And that's why "pro's" get themselves a bad name. Not the true pro who gives good service but the pseudo pro.

Have to say that the organising committee plays its part by not screening properly.




  
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Sibil
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Oct 10, 2014 05:22 |  #103

flickserve wrote in post #17204397 (external link)
And that's why "pro's" get themselves a bad name. Not the true pro who gives good service but the pseudo pro.

Have to say that the organising committee plays its part by not screening properly.

He gets lots of work from the schools and non-profit organizations. I have heard his rates are the lowest.




  
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Oct 10, 2014 16:12 |  #104

Question. Does anyone here that shoot from the sideline have liability insurance?


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Oct 11, 2014 10:10 |  #105

Methodical wrote in post #17205814 (external link)
Question. Does anyone here that shoot from the sideline have liability insurance?

I won't be there if I didn't. All it takes is one freak accident and a kid gets hurt.:cry:
Everyone should have it if you shoot on the field.


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Getting kicked off our own sideline.
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