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FORUMS Photography Talk by Genre Sports Talk 
Thread started 23 Nov 2013 (Saturday) 08:53
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Getting kicked off our own sideline.

 
pat.kane
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Oct 11, 2014 16:18 |  #106

Talley wrote in post #17202968 (external link)
... even when there is a "no photography" announcement I will continue to shoot ... I have the right to.

No, you probably don't. The line has to be drawn somewhere and depending on the league and venue, you may only have the right to sit in your seat and enjoy the game.

To create an absurd example. "Hey, my kid gets hungry when he plays a game, and little Timmy likes nothing better than a big, fat hamburger, so I plan to bring a grill onto the sidelines along with a table of refreshments." Do I have the right to do so? Absolutely not. If the league announces "no photography", put the camera away. If you don't like the policy, instead of walking, pursue the issue with the league, don't make it an issue for the volunteers/staff on the field that day.

Methodical wrote in post #17205814 (external link)
Question. Does anyone here that shoot from the sideline have liability insurance?

Yes. It is essential given today's litigious society. Hill & Usher offers a policy specifically targeted to photographers.


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flickserve
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Oct 11, 2014 17:32 |  #107

Sibil wrote in post #17204758 (external link)
He gets lots of work from the schools and non-profit organizations. I have heard his rates are the lowest.

Fair enough then. Some of these organizations are very cost concious. They are paying for the reliability of having some photos at hand with some acceptance of lower quality. It's a trade off issue. I am sure they would love to have better photos, but finances are probably tight. Or, they are managed by people who cannot see any value with better photos.




  
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MDJAK
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Oct 11, 2014 17:58 |  #108

Absolutely perfect analysis.

cstewart wrote in post #16474501 (external link)
Putting aside for a moment your history in shooting and providing images to the team, just to provide some perspective from the league and the other photographer's perspective, if the league has hired a photographer to shoot the game, then there is a reasonable expectation from that photographer that he will have access to shooting areas and places that others (parent's with cameras) do not have. It is a way of protecting his or her rights as a photographer and offering some guarantee that he will see some sales income from his time and effort shooting the event, since he will be in a position to make images that no one else can make.

As an example, I was recently asked to shoot an Atom hockey tournament and as such was the only photographer to be allowed in the penalty boxes of the rinks (which are open) so that I had exclusive access to a key shooting location that others did not have. When a parent on one of the teams went into one of the boxes to shoot, he was respectfully asked to leave by myself and the tournament organizer. He understood and moved along.

If you think about the time that the "hired" photographer puts into shooting the game, processing the images and the like and then consider that if there are two parents also shooting the game and giving away images for FREE, how is he supposed to compete with that? Even if his images are Sports Illustrated quality, my experience is parents will settle for lower quality images of their sons or daughters if someone is giving to them for free. (Please note I am not saying your images are lower quality as I have not seen any to compare, but I am speaking from my own experience. People will gladly take home crap, dark, slightly out of focus images of "Jimmy" (or even sadder, iPhone photos) that they or their friends shoot, rather than pay $15 or $25 for a professional print or image. It is one reason why I now hesitate if asked to shoot tournaments).

My personal opinion is that you need to respect the decision of the league for this particular game and maybe try and find out why they went somewhere else, as opposed to approaching you and the other Dad. Was it because of image quality? Did they just not know you guys were doing this? What were the issues? If you can't be on the field for the game, maybe get creative and shoot some things that you would not normally shoot, like the fans, or other perspectives on the game.

As to price, my print rates, which seem to be on par with most others offering similar, are $8 for a 4x6, $15 for a 5x7 and $25 for an 8x10. Add $10 to each of those if they want a mat around them suitable for framing. Web rez digital image $10, High rez image on CD suitable for them printing $25 and a sliding scale for multiple images on CD.

I would suspect that his prices will be on par with this and like many others like me in this business he is trying to make an honest living as a photographer not trying to "gouge" anyone as you insinuate. Earning a living as a sports photographer is extremely difficult to do in this day and age when "everyone" is a photographer, everyone is armed with a camera of some sort, when kids rampantly steal images off your web site even when watermarked, and when many non-professional photographers, hobbyists and parents give away photos to teams for free.

That's my 2 cents and my rant. Enjoy the game and I hope it all works out OK for everyone.




  
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LonelyBoy
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Oct 25, 2014 07:50 |  #109

flyingwolf wrote in post #17200058 (external link)
Do you have a team photographer? If not then you aren't hurting anyone, if you do then you are directly stealing from him/her, there is no nice way to put it.

Unless that pro is explicitly given exclusive access... no, the above poster is not "stealing" in any sense. When I took my girlfriend out for dinner last night and elected to park my car myself rather than use the valet, was I stealing? No. The valet doesn't have the right to get money from everyone who shows up for dinner, and you don't have the right to extract a fee from everyone who wants a picture of their kid playing football.

If your pictures are sufficiently superior to pictures taken by PWCs, people will pay for them. If people aren't willing to pay for them, I'd ask yourself why (and the answer isn't "people need to be forced to not have other options).

Over in my world, I race triathlons. The professional photographers hired to handle those are a joke. Universally, their bike pictures are taken from the front, either at the top of a hill or in the middle of a corner. Guess what? No one actually wants that picture; we want pictures from the side, in the aero position, at speed. Fortunately, there are various friends and spouses with nice cameras who come out and get the proper shots of everyone in the team kit.

The other issue I had with the professional photographers at a race was at a small race in an outlying town that I actually won (not bragging, I did the shortest distance, which had the weakest field, as practice). I'd have liked a picture, and would have been willing to pay for a shot of myself coming across the finish line first. Except, oh wait, the photographers "didn't know anyone was coming yet" and missed the shot. They also missed the guy in second place who wasn't that far behind. Whoops. Oh well, what can you expect from a professional photography company? Maybe catching the winner is just too hard.

That same race had other distances on Sunday (my distance and another were on Saturday). The company's pictures on their site were sorted by day... except it was actually more "random" than "sorted". I had pictures tagged for both days, even though I wasn't even in that town on Sunday. Whoops again.

I'm sure there are better professional photographers out there. That was even the worst that I've encountered in half a decade of racing. It was, however, enough that I absolutely would not trust a professional to capture a moment I wanted to preserve. How could I?


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Luxx
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Oct 25, 2014 07:56 |  #110

So tempting since it's back yet again...must resist




  
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Methodical
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Oct 25, 2014 21:32 |  #111

LonelyBoy wrote in post #17232197 (external link)
Unless that pro is explicitly given exclusive access... no, the above poster is not "stealing" in any sense. When I took my girlfriend out for dinner last night and elected to park my car myself rather than use the valet, was I stealing? No. The valet doesn't have the right to get money from everyone who shows up for dinner, and you don't have the right to extract a fee from everyone who wants a picture of their kid playing football.

If your pictures are sufficiently superior to pictures taken by PWCs, people will pay for them. If people aren't willing to pay for them, I'd ask yourself why (and the answer isn't "people need to be forced to not have other options).

Over in my world, I race triathlons. The professional photographers hired to handle those are a joke. Universally, their bike pictures are taken from the front, either at the top of a hill or in the middle of a corner. Guess what? No one actually wants that picture; we want pictures from the side, in the aero position, at speed. Fortunately, there are various friends and spouses with nice cameras who come out and get the proper shots of everyone in the team kit.

The other issue I had with the professional photographers at a race was at a small race in an outlying town that I actually won (not bragging, I did the shortest distance, which had the weakest field, as practice). I'd have liked a picture, and would have been willing to pay for a shot of myself coming across the finish line first. Except, oh wait, the photographers "didn't know anyone was coming yet" and missed the shot. They also missed the guy in second place who wasn't that far behind. Whoops. Oh well, what can you expect from a professional photography company? Maybe catching the winner is just too hard.

That same race had other distances on Sunday (my distance and another were on Saturday). The company's pictures on their site were sorted by day... except it was actually more "random" than "sorted". I had pictures tagged for both days, even though I wasn't even in that town on Sunday. Whoops again.

I'm sure there are better professional photographers out there. That was even the worst that I've encountered in half a decade of racing. It was, however, enough that I absolutely would not trust a professional to capture a moment I wanted to preserve. How could I?

I had a similar experience when I did the Seagull Century in Salisbury MD. The photographers were cutting me off (picture that is) and not getting isolated side shots. However, they did capture me going over the 25th annual Seagull sign on the road (think it was one of those cameras with a trip switch or something) and I purchased that image. I think they just hire some kids and give them a camera and they put it on sports mode and one shot and get what they can get.

We or rather the people that call themselves professionals have to be careful with that title. Just because they get paid for doing something don't make them a professional of the trade. I see some amazingly crazy stuff called professional.


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Oct 26, 2014 10:40 |  #112

@LonelyBoy & Methodical

I am not going to stick up for poor photography at races, but will point out (as someone who does shoot them) that bar-none, every Company I have worked for, dictates the exact specifications of the shot from camera position to cropping expected. I agree they always want head one, and as someone who bikes I would also prefer the side shot.

That said there is no excuse for missing a finish line shot, or for having poorly cropped or exposed photos.

So often the guys hired to do these shoots are using consumer grade gear, and are getting paid very little in comparison to the time and wear on that gear. I get paid more than the average guy, since I produce a very high rate of solid photos, and that translates into more sales for the Companies I work for.

Last year I ran in one of the Marathons I normally shoot, one where they have 12 photographers on the course, I knew where they were stationed, since it is the same every year. I was excited to get a couple high-quality shots so I would position myself in a great location on the road as I approached them and even in a couple situations slowed a bit to give them a clear shot at me.

a week after the race I find there are 6 photos of me, and everyone was crap. My son took a picture on me with his phone on my way into the stadium, and it was a better shot. Very disappointing.....


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Getting kicked off our own sideline.
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