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FORUMS Photography Talk by Genre General Photography Talk 
Thread started 21 Oct 2014 (Tuesday) 17:23
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Goodbye DSLR Nikon, Hello Mirrorless Sony

 
bobbyz
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Oct 26, 2014 10:00 |  #76

Tom Reichner wrote in post #17233134 (external link)
A completely different situation than what WaterRockets presented. In fact, I would say that the motorbike example is not a difficult focusing situation at all; the bike is relatively small in the frame, and is moving horizontally - perpendicular to the shooter's line of sight. heck, one could take a cheap point & shoot, pre-focus on the middle of the track, and nail focus on every pass. Not an AF challenge at all. (And yes, I do realize that the rider is on a slight curve, but that really does not make a difference when you can just pre-focus on one part of a track and wait 'till the motorbike gets there).

The swimming image presented by WaterRockets is truly an AF challenge. The subject is big in the frame and moving towards the camera. Add to that the fact that the contrast between the subject and the object surrounding the subject (the water) is continually changing as the swimmers head bobs up and down, above the water's surface, then below the water's surface, interrupted by the transitional period when the emergence/submergence of the head causes splashing, which introduces yet a different, additional change in the degree of relative contrast.

The two scenarios are so completely different - one a huge AF challenge and one a very easy AF situation - that it surprises me that anyone would compare them to each other in an attempt to make a point about the AF abilities of any particular items of gear.

Agree. I have 5dmk3 and Fuji XT-1 and so far I am having hard time with Fuji for shooting action. But then the other day I saw someone had posted shots of her kid running at him with Fuji 56mm f1.2 and camera nailed most shots at f1.2. Even my 5dmk3 can't do that. How he did it, and if the keeper rate is repeatable, I am still trying to figure out. I will see if I can find the link.

Biggest problem for me being used to Canon is that on Fuji, their back button focus implementation is totally different. And VF lag when shooting action is very bad. Some of this will improve as time passes. Right now there are only 9 Phase Detect AF points in center. Sony A7r has no phase detect points only contrast detect so that is why AF is slower than Fuji. But the dynamic range is awesome and MF is so nice with focus peaking. I tried A6000 in store and AF is very very nice, almost as good as most dSLRs. This camera had so many phase detect points. If sony put same thing in A7r, A7r sales will go up. Sony needs to work on fast primes though. Fuji is doing very very good there.

For my portraits I use mainly 70-200mm f2.8 IS II and 5dmk3, sometimes 85L. If I replace all those with XT-1 and 56mm f1.2 and new Fuji 90mm f2 or the 50-140mm f2.8 OS, I will be happy for carrying less than 1/2 the weight of my dSLR kit.

I look at your galleries, awesome stuff but I can imagine you would be happy if you can do same with something that weights say 1/2 of your current gear even if it was more expensive.


5dmk3, 35L, 85L II, 300mm f2.8 IS I, 400mm f5.6
Fuji XT-1, 14mm f2.8, 23mm f1.4, 35mm f1.4, 56mm f1.2, 90mm f2, 50-140mm f2.8

  
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BigAl007
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Oct 26, 2014 11:32 |  #77

bobbyz wrote in post #17233803 (external link)
look at your galleries, awesome stuff but I can imagine you would be happy if you can do same with something that weights say 1/2 of your current gear even if it was more expensive.

The problem with that is that it is NOT POSSIBLE to produce a lens with a focal length of over 400 mm with a maximum aperture that will allow quick phase detect AF with a front element of less than 72mm in diameter (400mm f/5.6 needs an aperture diameter of 71.4mm). Want longer focal length or larger aperture? Then that front element just gets bigger. Even if you make the body out of the latest synthetic materials, all that glass up front is going to be significantly heavy. Reducing the flange distance in these cases is also going to have zero effect on the size of the lens. This is the reason that for zoom lenses at least, the longest MINIMUM focal length for an EF-s lens is 55mm. Once you get to a zoom range that starts at 70mm there is absolutely zero benefit from using the reduced lens distance that the EF-s mount offers. You also get no real benefit from reducing the size of the image circle at these focal lengths. Even the other lens manufacturers, who only actually use the EF mount, even on their crop only lenses, don't bother to make a telephoto zoom, with a crop only image circle that has a minimum focal length of 70mm or longer. The reason they do this is because there is no advantage to it.

Alan


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maximus_73
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Oct 26, 2014 13:48 |  #78

what about this image?

https://www.flickr.com …59132351@N04/15​442007460/ (external link)

My point is mirrorless evolved so much 'til the point I believe it threaten the dslr market. For casual photographer, it's a great system.... you can shoot virtually anything. One of the system that I really like right now is Sony a6000... the AF gives me a big WOW! it's even better than x-t1, and indeed can you tell me any new dslr systems for $600 that has better AF than a6000?

Fuji, Sony, Olympus, and Samsung are heavily invested into mirrorless. In the next few months, fujifilm is releasing 50-140mm f/2.8 lens(that's equivalent to 70-200mm FF) and furthermore in their road map, you can see they start to release telezoom lenses, and what Canon and Nikon are doing now in term of mirrorless market? NOTHING. More and more people I met on the street that converted from dslr to mirrorless, and all of them give me very same reasons why they are moving to mirrorless: Weight, size without IQ compromise.

Yes, mirrorless is not 100% suitable for sport photography, and therefore, if majority of your work is sport photography, stick with DSLR for now. But if you're landscape and portrait photography, Sony A7r/A7/A7s is a good choice. Anything else, crop sensor mirrorless is a logical system - that does not mean you cannot take portrait or landscape with crop sensor.

Remember Kodak, one of the company did not believed that digital camera would killed film camera... and by the time they realized it, it was kind of too late, and look what happen to them. Timing is very crucial in this evolve market, any mistakes would bring down the company, and Kodak was one of the victim of their ego.


Cameras: Canon EOS M, FujiFilm X-T1| Lenses: FD 50mm 1.4, Fujinon 23mm 1.4, Fujinon 56 1.2, Zeiss 32mm 1.8

  
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waterrockets
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Oct 26, 2014 22:34 |  #79

maximus_73 wrote in post #17234115 (external link)
what about this image?

https://www.flickr.com …59132351@N04/15​442007460/ (external link)

My point is mirrorless evolved so much 'til the point I believe it threaten the dslr market. For casual photographer, it's a great system.... you can shoot virtually anything. One of the system that I really like right now is Sony a6000... the AF gives me a big WOW! it's even better than x-t1, and indeed can you tell me any new dslr systems for $600 that has better AF than a6000?

Fuji, Sony, Olympus, and Samsung are heavily invested into mirrorless. In the next few months, fujifilm is releasing 50-140mm f/2.8 lens(that's equivalent to 70-200mm FF) and furthermore in their road map, you can see they start to release telezoom lenses, and what Canon and Nikon are doing now in term of mirrorless market? NOTHING. More and more people I met on the street that converted from dslr to mirrorless, and all of them give me very same reasons why they are moving to mirrorless: Weight, size without IQ compromise.

Yes, mirrorless is not 100% suitable for sport photography, and therefore, if majority of your work is sport photography, stick with DSLR for now. But if you're landscape and portrait photography, Sony A7r/A7/A7s is a good choice. Anything else, crop sensor mirrorless is a logical system - that does not mean you cannot take portrait or landscape with crop sensor.

Remember Kodak, one of the company did not believed that digital camera would killed film camera... and by the time they realized it, it was kind of too late, and look what happen to them. Timing is very crucial in this evolve market, any mistakes would bring down the company, and Kodak was one of the victim of their ego.

That's a beautiful image, and spot-on focus. It's still a simpler AF case because it's a continuous focus situation, with the dog visible and tracked for more than a second.

Your points are all valid. My point is that we cannot yet say that mirrorless bodies can completely replace DSLRs. Even a 2005 DSLR (1D2n). Note that the 1D2n can be purchased for considerably less than the mirrorless models you list, and it will destroy them all in serious sports shooting. It loses out only on resolution if you have to crop and print big, and on low-light ISO performance -- both of which are overrun by knowing that you're talking about crisp focus in the shots.

I do agree that the mirrorless bodies are doing really well in non-birding, non-sports areas, and are serviceable in birding and sports. If you have $600 to drop on a body right now, and aren't shooting those subjects, it's a wonderful world of options. If you want to bird or sport shoot... $600 for a beat-up 7D is probably the way to go.


1D MkIV | 1D MkIII | 550D w/grip & ML| EF 70-200mm f2.8L| EF 24-105mm f4L IS | Canon EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6L IS | Samyang 14mm f/2.8 IF ED UMC | 430EXii | EF 50mm f1.8

  
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smythie
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Oct 27, 2014 01:58 |  #80

waterrockets wrote in post #17234889 (external link)
That's a beautiful image, and spot-on focus. It's still a simpler AF case because it's a continuous focus situation, with the dog visible and tracked for more than a second.

From what I understand, it was that sort of situation which got the 1d3 all confused early on in its life


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bobbyz
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Oct 27, 2014 09:50 |  #81

smythie wrote in post #17235061 (external link)
From what I understand, it was that sort of situation which got the 1d3 all confused early on in its life

Yup, made lot of canon folks move to Nikon.


5dmk3, 35L, 85L II, 300mm f2.8 IS I, 400mm f5.6
Fuji XT-1, 14mm f2.8, 23mm f1.4, 35mm f1.4, 56mm f1.2, 90mm f2, 50-140mm f2.8

  
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05Xrunner
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Oct 27, 2014 10:01 |  #82

I sold off my last setup of 7D, 135L and sigma 17-50 to move to the a6000.
I bought the a6000 and the 18-105 f4OSS lens. It was a nice little setup focus was fast and the 11fps was nuts and it kept continuous focus pretty good during that with action. used it with my kids soccer. Problem was its great setup if you shoot things that have no need for reach. They had the wide angle and standard range covered in the E mount but the ONLY true option for any reach was the Sony 70-200 f4OSS and it was $1500.
No way i would pay that for a f4 70-200. Sure you can use the A mount adapter on it and use A mount lenses but it makes AF painfully slow and hunts alot more so its almost useless for action at tele lenses then. So I sold it and went back to canon and got a 50D to hold me over till I pickup a 7DII in the spring. If there was a decent selecton for tele lenses on the E mount that wasnt overpriced I probably would have kept the a6000 as it had very good IQ, good high ISO noise handling and AF that was up to par with my 7D


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Charlie
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Oct 27, 2014 11:04 |  #83

05Xrunner wrote in post #17235486 (external link)
I sold off my last setup of 7D, 135L and sigma 17-50 to move to the a6000.
I bought the a6000 and the 18-105 f4OSS lens. It was a nice little setup focus was fast and the 11fps was nuts and it kept continuous focus pretty good during that with action. used it with my kids soccer. Problem was its great setup if you shoot things that have no need for reach. They had the wide angle and standard range covered in the E mount but the ONLY true option for any reach was the Sony 70-200 f4OSS and it was $1500.
No way i would pay that for a f4 70-200. Sure you can use the A mount adapter on it and use A mount lenses but it makes AF painfully slow and hunts alot more so its almost useless for action at tele lenses then. So I sold it and went back to canon and got a 50D to hold me over till I pickup a 7DII in the spring. If there was a decent selecton for tele lenses on the E mount that wasnt overpriced I probably would have kept the a6000 as it had very good IQ, good high ISO noise handling and AF that was up to par with my 7D

did you try the LAEA4 mount? That's suppose to be very fast, but you're right, paying 1500 for a 70-200 F4 makes no sense, an if you do use long lenses like that, canon feels like it has an incredible edge.


Sony A7riii/A9 - FE 12-24/4 - FE 24-240 - SY 24/2.8 - FE 28/2 - FE 35/2.8 - FE 50/1.8 - FE 85/1.8 - EF 135/1.8 Art - F 600/5.6 - CZ 100-300 - Astro Rok 14/2.8 - Tamron 17-28/2.8 - 28-75/2.8 RXD, 70-200/2.8 VC

  
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05Xrunner
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Oct 27, 2014 11:07 |  #84

no i didnt try that as I also felt paying $350 for a mount was a bit way over priced. I only paid a little more for my 70-200f4 I have now. The system is really nice as a backup to a DSLR kit I feel or if your shooting anything that doesnt require long lenses. Something you wanna take on a vacation and dont want to lug around a big body and lens. Maybe once the system is little more mature might be more options like maybe Sigma will start offering more of their lineup in the Emount


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Fernando
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Oct 27, 2014 11:11 |  #85

waterrockets wrote in post #17234889 (external link)
I do agree that the mirrorless bodies are doing really well in non-birding, non-sports areas, and are serviceable in birding and sports. If you have $600 to drop on a body right now, and aren't shooting those subjects, it's a wonderful world of options. If you want to bird or sport shoot... $600 for a beat-up 7D is probably the way to go.

If I was a wildlife shooter, or the sports I was shooting were more difficult (random or bad light, random movement) I would still have my 7D. Instead I am loving my X-T1 as it's the right tool at this time. If I change systems again too soon my wife may kill me. I don't see it coming however as the lens line-up from Fuji is really good for what I do.


Fuji convert - Ping me if you have any Fuji gear or legacy glass you're moving.

  
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*Jayrou
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Oct 27, 2014 11:12 |  #86

05Xrunner wrote in post #17235486 (external link)
I sold off my last setup of 7D, 135L and sigma 17-50 to move to the a6000.
I bought the a6000 and the 18-105 f4OSS lens. It was a nice little setup focus was fast and the 11fps was nuts and it kept continuous focus pretty good during that with action. used it with my kids soccer. Problem was its great setup if you shoot things that have no need for reach. They had the wide angle and standard range covered in the E mount but the ONLY true option for any reach was the Sony 70-200 f4OSS and it was $1500.
No way i would pay that for a f4 70-200. Sure you can use the A mount adapter on it and use A mount lenses but it makes AF painfully slow and hunts alot more so its almost useless for action at tele lenses then. So I sold it and went back to canon and got a 50D to hold me over till I pickup a 7DII in the spring. If there was a decent selecton for tele lenses on the E mount that wasnt overpriced I probably would have kept the a6000 as it had very good IQ, good high ISO noise handling and AF that was up to par with my 7D

Isn't it a great little Camera that ?

I just got one to compliment my A7R - How I wish the A7R had the A6000 focus , its fantastic , Love both camera, still use my Canon TS-E and 16-35mm on both albeit reduced focus speed but I most Manual Focus with them anyway.


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05Xrunner
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Oct 27, 2014 11:15 |  #87

for the price and what it offers and the features. it is a hard camera to beat. Just wish the lens lineup was better


My gear
Fuji X-T2, Fuji 18-55 2.8-4 OIS, Fuji 35 f2, Fuji 50 f2, Fuji 90 f2, Fuji 55-200 3.5-4.8 OIS
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Reservoir ­ Dog
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Oct 27, 2014 11:57 |  #88

05Xrunner wrote in post #17235486 (external link)
I sold off my last setup of 7D, 135L and sigma 17-50 to move to the a6000.
I bought the a6000 and the 18-105 f4OSS lens. It was a nice little setup focus was fast and the 11fps was nuts and it kept continuous focus pretty good during that with action. used it with my kids soccer. Problem was its great setup if you shoot things that have no need for reach. They had the wide angle and standard range covered in the E mount but the ONLY true option for any reach was the Sony 70-200 f4OSS and it was $1500.
No way i would pay that for a f4 70-200. Sure you can use the A mount adapter on it and use A mount lenses but it makes AF painfully slow and hunts alot more so its almost useless for action at tele lenses then. So I sold it and went back to canon and got a 50D to hold me over till I pickup a 7DII in the spring. If there was a decent selecton for tele lenses on the E mount that wasnt overpriced I probably would have kept the a6000 as it had very good IQ, good high ISO noise handling and AF that was up to par with my 7D

>> http://www.bhphotovide​o.com …70_200mm_f_2_8_​EX_DG.html (external link) :lol: :lol: :lol:


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05Xrunner
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Oct 27, 2014 12:02 |  #89

but thats an A mount not E mount..Sigma makes only 3 E mount lenses. I think its 20,30,60mm primes


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Sony RX100 II

  
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John
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Oct 27, 2014 12:02 |  #90

Haven't been keeping up with the mirrorless market at all, so accepting the risk of sounding like a complete newb:

Are there any photo blogs of any photographers that is using mirrorless for action/sports?


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Goodbye DSLR Nikon, Hello Mirrorless Sony
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