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FORUMS Canon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon EOS Digital Cameras 
Thread started 04 Nov 2014 (Tuesday) 10:44
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New 60D vs used 5D

 
Immaculens
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Nov 04, 2014 20:08 as a reply to  @ post 17252683 |  #16

enjoy a new 60D with warranty, learn Lightroom, get great at both... if your photogrpahy stays typically less that 150mm after a few years - consider upgrading to a 6D or whatever your proficiency and potential suggests.

but enjoy it ;)


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7Dmk II gripped | 150-600 (Σ) OS C | 55-250 IS STM | 100L f/2.8 IS Macro | 15-85 IS | 50 f/1.8 STM | 30 Σ f/1.4 'A'
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kcbrown
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Nov 04, 2014 20:33 |  #17

Immaculens wrote in post #17252678 (external link)
here we go, folks is gett'in brawly now... popcorn? :eek:

:lol:


"There are some things that money can't buy, but they aren't Ls and aren't worth having" -- Shooter-boy
Canon: 2 x 7D, Sigma 17-50 f/2.8 OS, 55-250 IS, Sigma 8-16, 24-105L, Sigma 50/1.4, other assorted primes, and a 430EX.
Nikon: D750, D600, 24-85 VR, 50 f/1.8G, 85 f/1.8G, Tamron 24-70 VC, Tamron 70-300 VC.

  
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Immaculens
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Nov 04, 2014 20:38 |  #18

kcbrown wrote in post #17252764 (external link)
:lol:

truth is it bothers the @#$%^& out of me, so I sort of try either shifting gears or having fun... ;)


Will immaculens.com (external link)

7Dmk II gripped | 150-600 (Σ) OS C | 55-250 IS STM | 100L f/2.8 IS Macro | 15-85 IS | 50 f/1.8 STM | 30 Σ f/1.4 'A'
Learn to love to do well, and you shall. ~ C. Poseidon

  
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kcbrown
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Nov 04, 2014 20:40 |  #19

Immaculens wrote in post #17252778 (external link)
truth is it bothers the @#$%^& out of me, so I sort of try either shifting gears or having fun... ;)

That's a good approach, actually.

I kinda enjoy brawls, though, at least when there are facts to work with. Brawls of opinion are ones I leave alone because there's nothing objective to work with to decide the issue.


"There are some things that money can't buy, but they aren't Ls and aren't worth having" -- Shooter-boy
Canon: 2 x 7D, Sigma 17-50 f/2.8 OS, 55-250 IS, Sigma 8-16, 24-105L, Sigma 50/1.4, other assorted primes, and a 430EX.
Nikon: D750, D600, 24-85 VR, 50 f/1.8G, 85 f/1.8G, Tamron 24-70 VC, Tamron 70-300 VC.

  
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Immaculens
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Nov 04, 2014 20:58 |  #20

kcbrown wrote in post #17252783 (external link)
That's a good approach, actually.

I kinda enjoy brawls, though, at least when there are facts to work with. Brawls of opinion are ones I leave alone because there's nothing objective to work with to decide the issue.

I don't mind different of opinion so long as it stays respectful. Sometimes not much in abundance on this forum..


Will immaculens.com (external link)

7Dmk II gripped | 150-600 (Σ) OS C | 55-250 IS STM | 100L f/2.8 IS Macro | 15-85 IS | 50 f/1.8 STM | 30 Σ f/1.4 'A'
Learn to love to do well, and you shall. ~ C. Poseidon

  
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NBEast
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Nov 04, 2014 21:00 |  #21

Pop-up flash works better on the 60D. :p


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Charlie
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Nov 04, 2014 21:53 |  #22

kcbrown wrote in post #17252651 (external link)
Tonal accuracy is strictly a matter of postprocessing. The 5D has slightly better tonal range, but only slightly.

so you're admitting slightly better tonal range...... well, that's pretty much all of photography, one man's slightly better is another man's key to success.

kcbrown wrote in post #17252651 (external link)
Yes, but so close as to be objectively unnoticeable. 22.2 bits of representation for the 60D, versus 22.9 bits for the 5D. However, that's at ISO 100. The difference will become more noticeable at higher ISOs. Even so, I expect that even those differences will be overshadowed by postprocessing and choice of final display medium.

well the bit argument is nice and all, but tone range and color are directly related. A more complete color palette is the same really. My EOS-M couldnt match the 5Dc.


kcbrown wrote in post #17252651 (external link)
Sharpness is a matter of the antialiasing filter and the lens you have strapped on the camera. Oh, and focus accuracy, as well. Put sufficiently good glass on the 60D and you will not be able to distinguish its output from that of the 5D. And as a bonus, you get greater resolution to work with, so if you really have glass that has sufficient resolving power, you'll get greater actual resolution in your shots.

Unless you're using spectacular resolving lenses like L primes stopped down or the latest and greatest L zooms, crop camera with a tamron 17-50 wont be able to outresolve even budget lenses like the 28-135. Pretty much most, if not all EF lenses will work better on the 5Dc, including the 50 and 85 TS has mentioned.

if you shoot with something like the 70-200mk2 on APS-C, then that *might* resolve more, but even then, you've lost half of the frame and DOF control will be considerably different, much more than the minor sharpness differences at that point.

kcbrown wrote in post #17252651 (external link)
Seriously, the 5D is nice and all, but the only real reason to go with it is if you really need that extra shallow depth of field. Everything else is either in the 60D's favor (speed, autofocus capability, etc.) or so close as to be a wash.

60D beats the 5D at everything except for IQ..... it's exact thing TS was looking for.

You can trivialize the DOF, sharpness, and tonal range, but it's pretty damn huge in photography. The differences are anything but trivial. DOF can easily be spotted with small prints, and a huge factor with people photography.


Sony A7riii/A9 - FE 12-24/4 - FE 24-240 - CV 21/3.5 - FE 28/2 - FE 35/2.8 - FE 50/1.8 - FE 85/1.8 - EF 135/1.8 Art - F 600/5.6 - CZ 100-300 - Astro Rok 14/2.8 - Tamron 28-75/2.8 RXD, 70-200/2.8 VC

  
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mwsilver
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Nov 04, 2014 22:33 |  #23

CamMan93 wrote in post #17251670 (external link)
Hey everybody. At the moment I have 1000D, but It's a bit old camera, that makes a lot of noise and I would like to get better image quality.

At the moment I have
Tamron 17-50 2.8 vc and canon 50 1.8.

I would like to update, but i don't know what to choose.
Which would make better image quality?
I think that i would buy used 5D + new 85 1.8 or new 60D only. Which update would be better?
Does 5D have much more noise at 3200 iso than 60D? Does iso 6400 is usable on 60D? What do you think?

Sorry for bad english.

ISO 6400 is way too noisy on the 60D IMHO. I try to keeps things at at no higher than 1600, although sometimes I get acceptable results at 3200 depending on the subject and the circumstances. Now ISO 6400 on a 70D or a 7D2 is a different matter.


Mark
Canon 7D2, 60D, T3i, T2i, Sigma 18-35 f/1.8, 30 f/1.4. Canon EF 70-200 L f/4 IS, EF 35 f/2 IS, EFs 10-18 STM, EFs 15-85, EFs 18-200, EF 50 f/1.8 STM, Tamron 18-270 PZD, B+W MRC CPL, Canon 320EX, Vanguard Alta Pro 254CT & SBH 250 head. RODE Stereo Videomic Pro, DXO PhotoLab Elite, ON1

  
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kcbrown
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Nov 04, 2014 22:38 |  #24

Charlie wrote in post #17252924 (external link)
so you're admitting slightly better tonal range...... well, that's pretty much all of photography, one man's slightly better is another man's key to success.

I mean "slightly" as in "you can measure it but you won't actually see it".

well the bit argument is nice and all, but tone range and color are directly related. A more complete color palette is the same really. My EOS-M couldnt match the 5Dc.

There's color sensitivity and then there's tonal range. They're not the same thing. Tonal range is the number of gray levels that can be produced, while color sensitivity is the number of distinguishable colors that can be produced.

Unless you're using spectacular resolving lenses like L primes stopped down or the latest and greatest L zooms, crop camera with a tamron 17-50 wont be able to outresolve even budget lenses like the 28-135. Pretty much most, if not all EF lenses will work better on the 5Dc, including the 50 and 85 TS has mentioned.

That used to be the case. It's no longer the case. Modern crop lenses are spectacularly good. The images they produce would look blurry at 100% otherwise.

And keep in mind: the 5DC has a lower resolution than the 60D. Real sharpness comparisons cannot be properly done unless the 60D's image is downsized to match the resolution of the 5DC. When you do that, the result is even in more favor of the 60D (which, here, means that what little disadvantage the 60D started with will essentially disappear).


Look, I own a full frame setup and a crop setup. I've seen what both can do. Yes, the full frame setup generates sharpness and detail more easily, meaning it doesn't take as good glass to yield a given amount of detail, but the days when crop cameras were so glass-limited as to make full frame the clear winner (i.e., night and day difference) are long gone. At least, unless you're talking about the Nikon D800 line. Those have the sensor resolution to put full frame back in the clear lead.

if you shoot with something like the 70-200mk2 on APS-C, then that *might* resolve more, but even then, you've lost half of the frame and DOF control will be considerably different, much more than the minor sharpness differences at that point.

And that is the major difference between the two: DoF. If you need shallow depth of field, there is no substitute for a larger sensor.

60D beats the 5D at everything except for IQ..... it's exact thing TS was looking for.

That's true. I was reading his message as asking which camera would give him better image quality than the one he already has, but yes, if image quality is the only thing on the table, the 5DC will win. Barely, but it will win.

You can trivialize the DOF, sharpness, and tonal range, but it's pretty damn huge in photography. The differences are anything but trivial. DOF can easily be spotted with small prints, and a huge factor with people photography.

Yes. Did I not say that DoF was the one major difference between the two cameras?


"There are some things that money can't buy, but they aren't Ls and aren't worth having" -- Shooter-boy
Canon: 2 x 7D, Sigma 17-50 f/2.8 OS, 55-250 IS, Sigma 8-16, 24-105L, Sigma 50/1.4, other assorted primes, and a 430EX.
Nikon: D750, D600, 24-85 VR, 50 f/1.8G, 85 f/1.8G, Tamron 24-70 VC, Tamron 70-300 VC.

  
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mfunnell
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Nov 04, 2014 22:55 |  #25

kcbrown wrote in post #17252994 (external link)
Yes. Did I not say that DoF was the one major difference between the two cameras?

Unless you need to shoot video, or have a use for live view, or find a benefit from the swivel LCD or find the custom settings on the mode dial very useful or ... well there are potentially a lot of things. Just depends on the needs of the particular photographer...

...Mike

[Full disclosure: I have and still use my 5Dc and have not ever owned a 60D, having passed on it in favour of keeping my 50D and 5Dc. But that doesn't mean I didn't think about it, and weigh up pros and cons. I'm not disagreeing, I'm just saying.]


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kcbrown
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Nov 04, 2014 23:27 |  #26

mfunnell wrote in post #17253010 (external link)
Unless you need to shoot video, or have a use for live view, or find a benefit from the swivel LCD or find the custom settings on the mode dial very useful or ... well there are potentially a lot of things. Just depends on the needs of the particular photographer...

Yep, that's very true. I was thinking in terms of the qualities of the resulting images, but yes, those other things are all in favor of the 60D. It's why, although the OP asked about image quality, the 60D should not be overlooked just because it barely loses on the image quality front.


"There are some things that money can't buy, but they aren't Ls and aren't worth having" -- Shooter-boy
Canon: 2 x 7D, Sigma 17-50 f/2.8 OS, 55-250 IS, Sigma 8-16, 24-105L, Sigma 50/1.4, other assorted primes, and a 430EX.
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Charlie
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Nov 04, 2014 23:49 |  #27

kcbrown wrote in post #17252994 (external link)
I mean "slightly" as in "you can measure it but you won't actually see it".

There's color sensitivity and then there's tonal range. They're not the same thing. Tonal range is the number of gray levels that can be produced, while color sensitivity is the number of distinguishable colors that can be produced.

well color sensitivity across skin tones for instance, you WILL be able to see the differences. The fact that there's a smoother transition means that it has a more complete color set (I've done a comparison on this board).

as for the resolution, you can pull up a bunch of EF lenses, and more often than not, they'll resolve more on the 5Dc than 60D. You can quickly grab this info on Dxo. Maybe something like the sigma 18-35 or Canon's 24-70mk2 or 70-200mk2 might be able to outresolve the 60D's sensor to give it an edge over the 5Dc, but the majority of lenses, by a large margin, dont have these optics. If you're buying absolutely top shelf optics, you should be shooting a newer 5D3/6D/1Dx anyhow to take full advantage of the optics.

of the lenses that TS has/wants, the 50 and 85

the 50 scores 10% higher on the 5Dc (compared to the 7D, a similar sensor), and 85 scores 50% higher on the 5Dc, and that doesnt even take into the DOF differences. These figures are resolving figures and equalized for resolution differences.


Sony A7riii/A9 - FE 12-24/4 - FE 24-240 - CV 21/3.5 - FE 28/2 - FE 35/2.8 - FE 50/1.8 - FE 85/1.8 - EF 135/1.8 Art - F 600/5.6 - CZ 100-300 - Astro Rok 14/2.8 - Tamron 28-75/2.8 RXD, 70-200/2.8 VC

  
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kcbrown
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Nov 05, 2014 01:04 |  #28

Charlie wrote in post #17253068 (external link)
well color sensitivity across skin tones for instance, you WILL be able to see the differences. The fact that there's a smoother transition means that it has a more complete color set (I've done a comparison on this board).

Which kinds of output media are you able to see that difference on? I wouldn't expect to be (and haven't been) able to see any real difference on a standard computer screen, as that generally only has 8 bits per color channel worth of color resolution. I am able to see more noise at base ISO with the crop camera, of course.

as for the resolution, you can pull up a bunch of EF lenses, and more often than not, they'll resolve more on the 5Dc than 60D. You can quickly grab this info on Dxo. Maybe something like the sigma 18-35 or Canon's 24-70mk2 or 70-200mk2 might be able to outresolve the 60D's sensor to give it an edge over the 5Dc, but the majority of lenses, by a large margin, dont have these optics.

Again, you'd be surprised. Even the lowly current-generation 18-55 lens is able to get pretty close to hitting the limits of modern crop sensors' resolving power. Don't believe me? See for yourself (external link).

That should come as no surprise: Canon improved those lenses precisely because they were being used with higher resolution cameras than before, and they know that people like to pixel-peep.


If you're buying absolutely top shelf optics, you should be shooting a newer 5D3/6D/1Dx anyhow to take full advantage of the optics.

Again, that used to be the case. Lens production technology has improved a lot over time. Optical quality that was once relegated only to the highest end lenses is now available in the lowliest kit lenses.

Also, since full frame cameras are easier on lenses, it follows that you won't see as much of a difference in the final result between decent glass and exquisite glass with them. Crop cameras are much more demanding in that respect, as they magnify the defects of whatever lens is attached, and as a result, using exquisite glass on them will make a greater difference.

of the lenses that TS has/wants, the 50 and 85

the 50 scores 10% higher on the 5Dc (compared to the 7D, a similar sensor), and 85 scores 50% higher on the 5Dc, and that doesnt even take into the DOF differences. These figures are resolving figures and equalized for resolution differences.

What resource are you getting those figures from?

ETA: If you're using DxO for these figures, then I found what you're referring to. The 7D isn't the closest match to the 60D for its sensor. The 700D (T5i) is. The antialiasing filter on the 60D is weaker than the one on the 7D, and so is the one on the 700D. DxO derives a "perceptual megapixels" value from the lens/camera combination, and that's the apples-to-apples comparison you're talking about. For the 50 f/1.8, the 5D gets 11 P-MPix. The 700D gets 12. So the 700D actually does better than the 5D here. For the 85 f/1.8, the 5D gets 12 P-MPix, while the 700D gets 10. So the 5D does better with that lens than the 700D.

Looks to me like the difference between the two is, again, relatively small. Certainly the 5D is going to do better with older glass like what we're talking about here. But if you put a sufficiently good lens on the 60D, it will outperform the 5D in terms of sharpness at equalized resolutions, because it simply has more pixels with which to record detail. And such lenses today are inexpensive.


I'm not arguing here that the image quality from a full frame camera isn't better than from a crop camera, even when comparing the 5Dc to the 60D. What I am arguing is that the difference between those two specific cameras is small enough that it's almost certain that other factors will dominate, and the only exception is depth of field control, which is an advantage that has no dependence upon technology, only sensor size.


"There are some things that money can't buy, but they aren't Ls and aren't worth having" -- Shooter-boy
Canon: 2 x 7D, Sigma 17-50 f/2.8 OS, 55-250 IS, Sigma 8-16, 24-105L, Sigma 50/1.4, other assorted primes, and a 430EX.
Nikon: D750, D600, 24-85 VR, 50 f/1.8G, 85 f/1.8G, Tamron 24-70 VC, Tamron 70-300 VC.

  
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modestglock26
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Nov 05, 2014 09:22 |  #29

I don't know all the exact numbers and specs but I have owned a 5d and now currently own a 60d.

In my opinion, both are great cameras. I loved the shots I was getting with my 5d and I was using a 40d as a backup. I decided to try out the 60d as I was asked to do a very large print, and at the time I was really wanting a larger file size to work with as the size of the print was really pushing the limits of what I could do.

So, I made the switch and now have the 60d with the 40d as a backup. I wouldn't sell the 40d off as it was a gift and is basically new with 6k on it. My 60d also only has about 7k on it. The 60d really made my 5d feel like a dinosaur. I like the newer tech, but again, I don't see anything about either one that is really make or break.

If I could pick up a used 5d with a lower shutter count, I would in a heartbeat. I wouldn't want to part with the 60d in order to have one again, but it really does produce a great file.

Luckily, if you get one and decided to go with the other, trading and getting deals on gear is easy these days.


Sony A7ii and a Ricoh GR II with just about no skill

  
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Charlie
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Nov 05, 2014 09:26 |  #30

kcbrown wrote in post #17253134 (external link)
ETA: If you're using DxO for these figures, then I found what you're referring to. The 7D isn't the closest match to the 60D for its sensor. The 700D (T5i) is. The antialiasing filter on the 60D is weaker than the one on the 7D, and so is the one on the 700D. DxO derives a "perceptual megapixels" value from the lens/camera combination, and that's the apples-to-apples comparison you're talking about. For the 50 f/1.8, the 5D gets 11 P-MPix. The 700D gets 12. So the 700D actually does better than the 5D here. For the 85 f/1.8, the 5D gets 12 P-MPix, while the 700D gets 10. So the 5D does better with that lens than the 700D.

Looks to me like the difference between the two is, again, relatively small. Certainly the 5D is going to do better with older glass like what we're talking about here. But if you put a sufficiently good lens on the 60D, it will outperform the 5D in terms of sharpness at equalized resolutions, because it simply has more pixels with which to record detail. And such lenses today are inexpensive.


I'm not arguing here that the image quality from a full frame camera isn't better than from a crop camera, even when comparing the 5Dc to the 60D. What I am arguing is that the difference between those two specific cameras is small enough that it's almost certain that other factors will dominate, and the only exception is depth of field control, which is an advantage that has no dependence upon technology, only sensor size.

this is where things get iffy, and why I love dxo. IMO, the 60D cannot match the EOS-M, which I would put on the level of the t5i. That is just my opinion having shot both the 60D and M, but I digress.

we will use the 700D in this case.

in whole numbers, the 50 and 85 basically peg the 5D sensor, however, they dont get close to pegging the 5D. So when a score is close, I usually pull out the closer specs to see how the score is derived (measurements > sharpness > field map).

For the 50 1.8ii wide open, the 5D beats the 700D, however when you stop down to 2.8, the 700D takes the edges, while the 5D takes the center. At F4 and smaller, the 700D takes the entire frame and at that point, the lens is starting to resolve even more than the 5D can offer.

you can find the same with the 85 comparison with the exception that it stays better on the 5D the whole way through. It resolves well wide open and gets better stopped down, where the 50 behaves a little weaker wide open, but stronger stopped down.

So while the number my favor the 700D, the 50 performs better wide open on the 5Dc and better stopped down on the 700D.

and since you mentioned the 18-55STM, which is a stellar lens, the 5Dc is able to match its performance with the 28-135, which is also a kit lens that gives much more range. I would imagine that a newer gen 24-105 STM would be a significant improvement, however, I really didnt want to compare a kit lens, since the TS shoots with a constant F2.8 lens.


Sony A7riii/A9 - FE 12-24/4 - FE 24-240 - CV 21/3.5 - FE 28/2 - FE 35/2.8 - FE 50/1.8 - FE 85/1.8 - EF 135/1.8 Art - F 600/5.6 - CZ 100-300 - Astro Rok 14/2.8 - Tamron 28-75/2.8 RXD, 70-200/2.8 VC

  
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