Approve the Cookies
This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies and our Privacy Policy.
OK
Index  •   • New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear  •   • Reviews
Guest
New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear  •   • Reviews
Register to forums    Log in

 
FORUMS Canon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon EOS Digital Cameras 
Thread started 11 Nov 2014 (Tuesday) 05:29
Search threadPrev/next
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)

For what its worth

 
Hogloff
Cream of the Crop
7,606 posts
Likes: 415
Joined Apr 2003
Location: British Columbia
     
Nov 12, 2014 21:13 |  #31
bannedPermanent ban

idkdc wrote in post #17268642 (external link)
I'm a bigger fan of Robert Cicala's (on LensRental.com's blog) cross-platform comparisons of lenses from different companies where he'll take the sensor completely out of the equation. Rental guy dealing with all sorts of equipment seems to have less bias than a testing company whose services are only hired by Sony or Nikon and not Canon.

But DXO has tests specific for the sensor. Their ratings of the different cameras might be biased, but their detailed tests are just pure data.

I also like Roger's ( not Robert ) tests, but I take in multiple sites before making any conclusions for myself. I also quite often rent before buying either a new camera or a new lens. Nothing like testing things out for yourself using the equipment under the conditions you shoot.




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)
the ­ flying ­ moose
Goldmember
1,640 posts
Likes: 76
Joined Dec 2006
     
Nov 12, 2014 21:19 |  #32

Hogloff wrote in post #17268386 (external link)
Why does it seem to bother so many of you if some people choose to use other cameras than Canon? Rather than trying to learn about these other cameras, their strengths and weaknesses, you get defensive and resort to childish behavior.

Do not. You're mean and I'm taking my ball and going home.

I agree with what you say though. I don't care what you use as long as you are out taking photos. That's all that matters.




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
idkdc
Goldmember
Avatar
2,838 posts
Likes: 251
Joined Oct 2014
     
Nov 12, 2014 21:30 |  #33

Hogloff wrote in post #17268649 (external link)
But DXO has tests specific for the sensor. Their ratings of the different cameras might be biased, but their detailed tests are just pure data.

I also like Roger's ( not Robert ) tests, but I take in multiple sites before making any conclusions for myself. I also quite often rent before buying either a new camera or a new lens. Nothing like testing things out for yourself using the equipment under the conditions you shoot.

Yeah, Roger, whoops. Good call, trying is the best way to see for yourself. Completely agree on that.

I haven't really looked into their data too much recently (looked a long while back), but I think that a few people including Thom Hogan pointed out that they don't document their methodology. Haven't looked into it myself in detail, but I heard that sensorgen.info is a website that just displays the raw data, but then again, depends on methodology (if they're using just their own algorithms, those algorithms are tailored for the camera companies that hire DXO to test their sensors). Someone brought up Samsung as an example of a company that tailors its hardware to cheat specific benchmark tests, i.e. ramp up performance in bursts only when the test software is detected or something like that, I can't remember it exactly.

So it might be "raw data," but that the real-world application of that data and the conclusions you can draw from it might be undermined by how that data is exactly obtained, which so far from my reading seems like something that DXOMark doesn't explicitly outline like in an academic research paper that has to document methodology or else draw flak from colleagues.


Nikon Z7 / D850 | Canon C200 / 1DXII | Fujifilm XT2

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
CanonVsNikon
Senior Member
255 posts
Joined Jan 2013
     
Nov 12, 2014 21:40 |  #34
bannedPermanent ban

Let's face it, people here are dismissive of DXO due to Canon sensors not scoring well. Once a Canon sensor starts scoring better and surpassing the competition than people will start accepting the science and validity of their tests. Until then people here will continue to shoot them down.




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
idkdc
Goldmember
Avatar
2,838 posts
Likes: 251
Joined Oct 2014
     
Nov 12, 2014 22:10 |  #35

Come on, let's be real. Assigning an arbitrary score to anything is, as Hogan writes, pointless, just like ranking colleges, except in this case, how they get their results aren't documented (if it is, do explain to me how), whereas US News and Ranking will explain their methodology in depth (i.e. we'll rank USC higher this year b.c. we're weighting endowment more heavily this year). Even if one could argue that the data is there and at least they're measuring it, the score itself oversimplifies things in the same way a dpreview score will. Lenstips.com and places without scores that just do pros vs cons are more useful to a consumer than a score, even if they show MTF charts, spectrometer measurements, etc.


Nikon Z7 / D850 | Canon C200 / 1DXII | Fujifilm XT2

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
jhayesvw
Cream of the Crop
7,230 posts
Gallery: 167 photos
Likes: 268
Joined Jan 2011
Location: Tucson AZ
     
Nov 12, 2014 22:50 |  #36

When it comes down to it, both bodies allow the user to make great photographs.

Get out and shoot. I have lots of fun with my lowly 7d classic and old 100-400L.
See my sig for pics.



My Flickr (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
the ­ flying ­ moose
Goldmember
1,640 posts
Likes: 76
Joined Dec 2006
     
Nov 13, 2014 00:00 |  #37

CanonVsNikon wrote in post #17268690 (external link)
Let's face it, people here are dismissive of DXO due to Canon sensors not scoring well. Once a Canon sensor starts scoring better and surpassing the competition than people will start accepting the science and validity of their tests. Until then people here will continue to shoot them down.

Or people just don't care and go with what they like. I'll be honest, I don't think I have ever been on that site more than once. I don't care that one may or not be better than the other. Canon is my choice because it feels good to me and in my hands and allows me to do what I need it to do. If the Nikon felt better then that would be my choice and so on and so on.

Go out and shoot whether you are using a 3rd hand 400d or a brand new Nikon D4s or you splurged and dropped $50k on a Hasselblad. Just get out and take photos.




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
BigAl007
Cream of the Crop
Avatar
8,013 posts
Gallery: 543 photos
Best ofs: 1
Likes: 1626
Joined Dec 2010
Location: Repps cum Bastwick, Gt Yarmouth, Norfolk, UK.
     
Nov 13, 2014 02:28 |  #38

The important thing to remember about DXO is the reason that they are doing these tests. The tests that DXO perform are designed to provide data for developing their post processing software. This is what drives their testing methodology, so they only do tests that support that end. Of course someone at DXO realised that they have a lot of data, and maybe the company can make some money from it. Either directly from selling it, or indirectly by giving it away to raise the company profile to sell more software.

The sensor tests if looked at individually provide some useful data, but the actual results are better looked at rather than the scores, even at this level.

DXO's lens tests though really give no data that can be used to measure the comparative quality of lenses from different manufacturers. All DXO lens test are carried out with the lens mounted to a camera body, so you would expect that the body with the sensor with the highest linear resolution would provide the winning lens. This though is not the case, because to assist the generally much lower resolution FF sensors the results are "normalised" by taking the total resolution of the sensor into account. 'X Line Pairs per Image Height' is a completely useless measure of a lenses resolution, and one in which in concurrent sensor generations the FF sensor will always win because it is so much bigger. What is useful to know about lens resolution is the actual resolution, in Line Pairs per unit length. The problem is that this can only be measured independantly on a propper optical test bench. This though is of no benefit to DXO's software development. There are several other things that only an optical test bench can measure, such as field curvature and decentering. These though are measurements that are of more use to a manufacturer or repairer of lenses. It is therefore unsurprising that Lens Rentals have recently invested the not inconsiderable funds in one. It will be interesting to see how lenses from different manufacturers compare when test on the test bench. This used to be the way that some of the better photography magazines used to test (or have tested) lenses as far back at least as the 1970's.

Alan


My Flickr (external link)
My new Aviation images blog site (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
palad1n
Goldmember
Avatar
1,771 posts
Gallery: 9 photos
Likes: 2413
Joined Jun 2013
     
Nov 13, 2014 02:42 |  #39

People like things simplified for better direct comparison. It´s much easier to say : "my camera has better Dxo ratings than saying " than "my camera has better this and this under these particular conditions, etc.."

For me, there is only one way : "two pure RAW shots from two cameras i want to see differences under same conditions, same FOV"

If 100% clients won´t notice the difference on images, it means it doesn´t matter.


Website (online) : www.lukaskrasa.com (external link)
Flickr : http://www.flickr.com/​photos/105393908@N03/ (external link)
Facebook page: https://www.facebook.c​om/lukaskrasaphoto/ (external link)
Instagram: https://instagram.com/​lukaskrasacom (external link)
Lukas

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
CanonVsNikon
Senior Member
255 posts
Joined Jan 2013
     
Nov 13, 2014 08:51 |  #40
bannedPermanent ban

the flying moose wrote in post #17268875 (external link)
Or people just don't care and go with what they like. I'll be honest, I don't think I have ever been on that site more than once. I don't care that one may or not be better than the other. Canon is my choice because it feels good to me and in my hands and allows me to do what I need it to do. If the Nikon felt better then that would be my choice and so on and so on.

Go out and shoot whether you are using a 3rd hand 400d or a brand new Nikon D4s or you splurged and dropped $50k on a Hasselblad. Just get out and take photos.

But they do, DxO thread are the most active on POTN.

If people didn't care, we would have 2-3 responses than it would slowly die.




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Nethawked
Senior Member
801 posts
Gallery: 24 photos
Best ofs: 1
Likes: 243
Joined Oct 2014
Location: Virginia, USA
     
Nov 13, 2014 13:02 |  #41

^^ They're most active because people question the value of what DxO provides, and the CanonVsNikonVsSony people always want to get their jabs in.

Déjà vu.




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Hogloff
Cream of the Crop
7,606 posts
Likes: 415
Joined Apr 2003
Location: British Columbia
     
Nov 13, 2014 14:05 |  #42
bannedPermanent ban

Nethawked wrote in post #17269819 (external link)
^^ They're most active because people question the value of what DxO provides, and the CanonVsNikonVsSony people always want to get their jabs in.

Déjà vu.

The real question is would these same people be questioning the value of DXO if they ranked Canon cameras up high? I think I know that answer.




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
monkey44
Senior Member
Avatar
726 posts
Likes: 15
Joined Jul 2003
     
Nov 13, 2014 14:14 |  #43

Sometimes, people look for sites that validate themselves or the equipment they choose, and ignore sites that challenge those choices ...

Personally, I read whatever reviews and testing tell me, then go out and test what I buy to see if it serves the purpose for which I buy it well. If it does, then I care less what others say about it - at least as a general statement.




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
idkdc
Goldmember
Avatar
2,838 posts
Likes: 251
Joined Oct 2014
     
Nov 13, 2014 14:35 |  #44

Hogloff wrote in post #17269937 (external link)
The real question is would these same people be questioning the value of DXO if they ranked Canon cameras up high? I think I know that answer.

monkey44 wrote in post #17269956 (external link)
Sometimes, people look for sites that validate themselves or the equipment they choose, and ignore sites that challenge those choices ...

Personally, I read whatever reviews and testing tell me, then go out and test what I buy to see if it serves the purpose for which I buy it well. If it does, then I care less what others say about it - at least as a general statement.

To both of these responses, then Nikon users would be up in arms, and the Canon consumers who are easily persuaded / not technically aware or astute people would be happy, but the point is not what is being said and who is reacting to it, the problem is the opaque (nontransparent) methodology and arbitrary assigning of total scores. Should you immediately trust whatever medical study comes out (News at 11, studies show that chocolate/alcohol/toba​cco from this brand will extend your lifespan) without knowing how exactly the study is implemented (chocolate/alcohol/tob​acco pays company to test their products)? The chocolate or wine company might actually make great products, but not because DXOMarkChocolate/Wine/​Alcohol software tells you so. As far as I'm concerned, DXOMark is a black box unless you dig into their source code. That is an opaque testing platform, and one that wouldn't stand up to the requirements for academic research.


Nikon Z7 / D850 | Canon C200 / 1DXII | Fujifilm XT2

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
the ­ flying ­ moose
Goldmember
1,640 posts
Likes: 76
Joined Dec 2006
     
Nov 13, 2014 14:59 |  #45

CanonVsNikon wrote in post #17269375 (external link)
But they do, DxO thread are the most active on POTN.

If people didn't care, we would have 2-3 responses than it would slowly die.

POTN members represent a very small group of the camera buying public. I meant in general. When was the last time you were in a camera store and heard someone say, "I'd stay away from that camera if I were you, its dxo rating is not very good."

The general public just doesn't care enough to let that dictate their buying decision.




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)

11,428 views & 0 likes for this thread
For what its worth
FORUMS Canon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon EOS Digital Cameras 
AAA
x 1600
y 1600

Jump to forum...   •  Rules   •  Index   •  New posts   •  RTAT   •  'Best of'   •  Gallery   •  Gear   •  Reviews   •  Member list   •  Polls   •  Image rules   •  Search   •  Password reset

Not a member yet?
Register to forums
Registered members may log in to forums and access all the features: full search, image upload, follow forums, own gear list and ratings, likes, more forums, private messaging, thread follow, notifications, own gallery, all settings, view hosted photos, own reviews, see more and do more... and all is free. Don't be a stranger - register now and start posting!


COOKIES DISCLAIMER: This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies and to our privacy policy.
Privacy policy and cookie usage info.


POWERED BY AMASS forum software 2.1forum software
version 2.1 /
code and design
by Pekka Saarinen ©
for photography-on-the.net

Latest registered member is Willday
1037 guests, 316 members online
Simultaneous users record so far is 15144, that happened on Nov 22, 2018

Photography-on-the.net Digital Photography Forums is the website for photographers and all who love great photos, camera and post processing techniques, gear talk, discussion and sharing. Professionals, hobbyists, newbies and those who don't even own a camera -- all are welcome regardless of skill, favourite brand, gear, gender or age. Registering and usage is free.