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FORUMS Canon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon EOS Digital Cameras 
Thread started 11 Nov 2014 (Tuesday) 05:29
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CanonVsNikon
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Nov 13, 2014 15:07 |  #46
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the flying moose wrote in post #17270056 (external link)
POTN members represent a very small group of the camera buying public. I meant in general. When was the last time you were in a camera store and heard someone say, "I'd stay away from that camera if I were you, its dxo rating is not very good."

The general public just doesn't care enough to let that dictate their buying decision.

But if we went by what the general public cares, we wouldn't be talking about 1/2 stop hi ISO improvement from last gen or AF speed is 1/10 faster this time around. Or facial recognition finally works or AF down to f/8.

So if the general public doesn't care, how come Canon/Nikon is constantly trying to improve their cameras. Just pop in more megapixels and that is all you need.




  
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idkdc
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Nov 13, 2014 15:31 |  #47

the flying moose wrote in post #17270056 (external link)
POTN members represent a very small group of the camera buying public. I meant in general. When was the last time you were in a camera store and heard someone say, "I'd stay away from that camera if I were you, its dxo rating is not very good."

The general public just doesn't care enough to let that dictate their buying decision.

As they should. They're more interested in workflow and how the camera improves their lives. A little research couldn't hurt, but ultimately feel and operation would prob take priority with the majority of people. Also note that Canon offers a way sharper kit lens (STM) and newer pancakes (STM) included in the kit than Nikon currently does, so the average consumer might not understand why, but they can certainly see the results that Canon consumer kits easily outresolve Nikon ones in actual resolution (lens is the bottleneck here) vs. the higher megapixel counts on the Nikon cameras. There might be greater dynamic range, but that average consumer's not going to push shadows by 5 stops in post, so that sharper kit lens will make the biggest difference in their photos, and it'll cost Canon less than it costs Nikon to license and buy Sony's sensors from them.

CanonVsNikon wrote in post #17270074 (external link)
But if we went by what the general public cares, we wouldn't be talking about 1/2 stop hi ISO improvement from last gen or AF speed is 1/10 faster this time around. Or facial recognition finally works or AF down to f/8.

So if the general public doesn't care, how come Canon/Nikon is constantly trying to improve their cameras. Just pop in more megapixels and that is all you need.

Measurebating, pixel-peeping, ever notice how these terms coined by some of the early camera bloggers have a perverse connotation to them? It's because people who are concerned with minute image quality differences over other details like ergonomics, customer support, lens selection are often outliers in the target markets for camera companies.


Nikon Z7 / D850 | Canon C200 / 1DXII | Fujifilm XT2

  
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Hogloff
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Nov 13, 2014 15:43 |  #48
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idkdc wrote in post #17270014 (external link)
To both of these responses, then Nikon users would be up in arms, and the Canon consumers who are easily persuaded / not technically aware or astute people would be happy, but the point is not what is being said and who is reacting to it, the problem is the opaque (nontransparent) methodology and arbitrary assigning of total scores. Should you immediately trust whatever medical study comes out (News at 11, studies show that chocolate/alcohol/toba​cco from this brand will extend your lifespan) without knowing how exactly the study is implemented (chocolate/alcohol/tob​acco pays company to test their products)? The chocolate or wine company might actually make great products, but not because DXOMarkChocolate/Wine/​Alcohol software tells you so. As far as I'm concerned, DXOMark is a black box unless you dig into their source code. That is an opaque testing platform, and one that wouldn't stand up to the requirements for academic research.

Their sensor DR testing stands up to my own experience between the 5D2 and A7R...that's good enough for me. Do you have any data that contradicts their sensor test results?




  
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Hogloff
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Nov 13, 2014 15:43 |  #49
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the flying moose wrote in post #17270056 (external link)
POTN members represent a very small group of the camera buying public. I meant in general. When was the last time you were in a camera store and heard someone say, "I'd stay away from that camera if I were you, its dxo rating is not very good."

The general public just doesn't care enough to let that dictate their buying decision.

The general public is shooting cell phones...lets be real now.




  
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Hogloff
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Nov 13, 2014 15:47 |  #50
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idkdc wrote in post #17270117 (external link)
As they should. They're more interested in workflow and how the camera improves their lives. A little research couldn't hurt, but ultimately feel and operation would prob take priority with the majority of people. Also note that Canon offers a way sharper kit lens (STM) and newer pancakes (STM) included in the kit than Nikon currently does, so the average consumer might not understand why, but they can certainly see the results that Canon consumer kits easily outresolve Nikon ones in actual resolution (lens is the bottleneck here) vs. the higher megapixel counts on the Nikon cameras. There might be greater dynamic range, but that average consumer's not going to push shadows by 5 stops in post, so that sharper kit lens will make the biggest difference in their photos, and it'll cost Canon less than it costs Nikon to license and buy Sony's sensors from them.

Measurebating, pixel-peeping, ever notice how these terms coined by some of the early camera bloggers have a perverse connotation to them? It's because people who are concerned with minute image quality differences over other details like ergonomics, customer support, lens selection are often outliers in the target markets for camera companies.

The general public does not even want a DSLR...they want the cell phone cameras...that's all they need. Sharpness is not their concern...how quickly they can get it onto facebook is their prime concern.

On this website...I believe we are not talking about the general public. We are talking about advanced photographers that can utilize the extended features of their cameras...at least I hope this is the audience that posts in this website. Some days I have to wonder though.




  
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idkdc
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Nov 13, 2014 16:01 |  #51

Hogloff wrote in post #17270150 (external link)
The general public does not even want a DSLR...they want the cell phone cameras...that's all they need. Sharpness is not their concern...how quickly they can get it onto facebook is their prime concern.

On this website...I believe we are not talking about the general public. We are talking about advanced photographers that can utilize the extended features of their cameras...at least I hope this is the audience that posts in this website. Some days I have to wonder though.

I count sorority chicks well within the realm of general public that camera companies target. Rebel T4i or SL1 with 18-55mm IS STM is good enough for that crowd, and if I just shot landscapes and still-moving targets on a tripod, I'd take it over a better sensor and a lower resolution lens.


Nikon Z7 / D850 | Canon C200 / 1DXII | Fujifilm XT2

  
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idkdc
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Nov 13, 2014 16:04 |  #52

Hogloff wrote in post #17270139 (external link)
Their sensor DR testing stands up to my own experience between the 5D2 and A7R...that's good enough for me. Do you have any data that contradicts their sensor test results?

Correlation does not mean documentation. You are appealing to ignorance here (argumentum ad ignorantiam).

Arguments that appeal to ignorance rely merely on the fact that the veracity of the proposition is not disproven to arrive at a definite conclusion. These arguments fail to appreciate that the limits of one's understanding or certainty do not change what is true. They do not inform upon reality. That is, whatever the reality is, it does not "wait" upon human logic or analysis to be formulated. Reality exists at all times, and it exists independently of what is in the mind of anyone. And the true thrust of science and rational analysis is to separate preconceived notion(s) of what reality is, and to be open at all times to the observation of nature as it behaves, so as truly to discover reality. This fallacy can be very convincing and is considered by some[2] to be a special case of a false dilemma or false dichotomy in that they both fail to consider alternatives. A false dilemma may take the form:

If a proposition has not been disproven, then it cannot be considered false and must therefore be considered true.
If a proposition has not been proven, then it cannot be considered true and must therefore be considered false.


Nikon Z7 / D850 | Canon C200 / 1DXII | Fujifilm XT2

  
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CanonPaperboy
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Nov 13, 2014 16:04 |  #53
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Hogloff wrote in post #17270139 (external link)
Their sensor DR testing stands up to my own experience between the 5D2 and A7R...that's good enough for me. Do you have any data that contradicts their sensor test results?

I don't think so




  
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Nethawked
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Nov 13, 2014 16:15 |  #54

Hogloff wrote in post #17269937 (external link)
The real question is would these same people be questioning the value of DXO if they ranked Canon cameras up high? I think I know that answer.

Would you be promoting the value so much if it ranked your favorite brand low? I know I know that answer.




  
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Nethawked
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Nov 13, 2014 16:20 |  #55

Hogloff wrote in post #17270139 (external link)
Their sensor DR testing stands up to my own experience between the 5D2 and A7R...that's good enough for me. Do you have any data that contradicts their sensor test results?

I do. Countless people looking at countless photographs and gaining pleasure from the experience, not a single one pointing out the idiocy of dynamic range or clinical measurements, or which camera or lens captured the image. It's all about the scene and the talent of the photographer, not your silly purchase justification.




  
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Azathoth
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Nov 13, 2014 16:21 |  #56

MalVeauX wrote in post #17265089 (external link)
I just look at images.

Very best,

bw!


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CanonPaperboy
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Nov 13, 2014 16:46 |  #57
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Nethawked wrote in post #17270219 (external link)
I do. Countless people looking at countless photographs and gaining pleasure from the experience, not a single one pointing out the idiocy of dynamic range or clinical measurements, or which camera or lens captured the image. It's all about the scene and the talent of the photographer, not your silly purchase justification.

Than why the need for any new cameras if it's all about the photographer. Why the need for a 7D II if the original was good enough? The improvements were very incremental.




  
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CanonPaperboy
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Nov 13, 2014 16:47 |  #58
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Nethawked wrote in post #17270206 (external link)
Would you be promoting the value so much if it ranked your favorite brand low? I know I know that answer.

And would you be so dismissive of it if Canon was highest ranking?




  
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idkdc
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Nov 13, 2014 16:59 |  #59

CanonPaperboy wrote in post #17270282 (external link)
Than why the need for any new cameras if it's all about the photographer. Why the need for a 7D II if the original was good enough? The improvements were very incremental.

CanonPaperboy wrote in post #17270285 (external link)
And would you be so dismissive of it if Canon was highest ranking?

Seems like CanonPaperboy is making answers for Hogloff. I could be wrong, but it's probably a duplicate account here made just for this thread.


Nikon Z7 / D850 | Canon C200 / 1DXII | Fujifilm XT2

  
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CanonPaperboy
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Nov 13, 2014 17:00 |  #60
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idkdc wrote in post #17270307 (external link)
Seems like CanonPaperboy is making answers for Hogloff. I could be wrong, but it's probably a duplicate account here made just for this thread.

I'll take "Dodging the question" for $100 Alex




  
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