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FORUMS Post Processing, Marketing & Presenting Photos The Business of Photography 
Thread started 20 Nov 2014 (Thursday) 09:30
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Attention Everyone.. Read this and be careful

 
Road ­ Dog
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Nov 20, 2014 12:26 |  #16

CRCchemist wrote in post #17283639 (external link)
I fired off an email to B&H complaining about this. I suggest all of you do the same.

Flood their inbox with our complaints.

Also - B&H does have an account that is active here on the forum.

But send them emails complaining anyway so they have to respond to their customers.

Is there anything concrete demonstrating that B&H is using this?

I would be pretty silly to bombard them with complaints if those complaints are unwarranted. As it is, the only page I can find on Google, connecting RTO and Adorama or B&H, is this one. That's hardly a reason to go on an e-mail campaign...


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dkizzle
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Nov 20, 2014 13:06 |  #17

Didereaux wrote in post #17283466 (external link)
No 'Stupid consumerism 101' is more like it. Adorama I would expect to play in that mudhole, but I thought more highly of B-H...that may change. Will watch ALL things from them more closely now.vmad vmad

All parties involved want to financially benefit from each other. Consumer wants to get goods on credit and use gear free of charge while they are paying it off. For many it would be either take this deal or dont get any gear at all. Financing company is benefiting from high interest it gets from suckers who signup. Photo stores benefit from bringing both parties together and getting a cut.


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Willie
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Nov 20, 2014 13:18 |  #18

umphotography wrote in post #17283514 (external link)
I get that argument. And No Im Not worried about these people being my competition right now

But you need to understand something else when you crack off a statement like that:eek:

Education is now super cheap. Its everywhere. Skill sets are getting closer and closer and Good enough is now a factor that real business people must consider. I Understand how the market works and has changed for the last 10 yrs. This will eventually have an affect on the market and for legitimate business.

Anyone with a 1/2 a brain can learn how to use these camera and get awesome results. Good enough sells to about 82% of the market right now.......and the figures are there to back the percentage figure

So while i may agree a bit with your statement.. the picture is much bigger than a quick make your point statement...........Lo​ok at the big 30x40 picture and not the little 2x3 thats in your wallet

This is a straight off the camera file in Jpeg format in AV mode. The cameras are phenomenal these days.

QUOTED IMAGE

What does any of that have to do with high interest rates?




  
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moose10101
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Nov 20, 2014 13:37 |  #19

Willie wrote in post #17283828 (external link)
What does any of that have to do with high interest rates?

Not a thing. What started off as an attempt by the OP to keep people from signing up for bad financing deals seems to have morphed into not letting potential competitors buy good equipment.

Kind of strange.




  
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moose10101
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Nov 20, 2014 13:38 |  #20

And I still don't see anything from the OP tying either Adorama or B&H to this finance company.




  
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amerituner
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Nov 20, 2014 14:31 |  #21

In a capitalist economy the market will self regulate. Maybe I need a nw 1Dx for a Job I know will pay for it, but I need the Camera first. I finance it then pay it off. Maybe this RTO company fits my overall budget, then I use them.

If they are as terrible as you think due to high interest then people won't use them, they in turn lower the rates or go out of business. The market will dictate them as it does for us. I can charge 20,000 for a senior portrait session, maybe I get one person and make my money, but I would assume I will find that I need to lower my rates or continue with them until I have no customers.

Also If you don't like them and neither does 99% of their customers who cares if they offer it, they are not forcing you to use it as their only accepted payment method. These companies exist for all types of loans too, so anyone trying to get into photography using is dumb enough to use any number of other services in other aspects of their life.

I think the OP is most worried about new people being able to afford 1Dx's and D4s's and the like and then competing him out of business...

I don't see a problem with it, mostly because I won't use it. If it hurts either retailer they will discontinue the service offered. I know the high interest rates are to make as much as possible before the likely default in payments occur because someones wants were much larger than their pocket books to begin with.


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Phoenixkh
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Nov 20, 2014 14:35 |  #22

Well,

That's 5 minutes I'll never get back. ;)

On the other hand, I had never heard of Nebraska Furniture Mart. I'm a pretty loyal Amazon customer. I've been with them since their start-up, when all they sold were books.


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sandpiper
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Nov 20, 2014 14:42 |  #23

umphotography wrote in post #17283514 (external link)
Anyone with a 1/2 a brain can learn how to use these camera and get awesome results. Good enough sells to about 82% of the market right now.......and the figures are there to back the percentage figure


This is a straight off the camera file in Jpeg format in AV mode. The cameras are phenomenal these days.

QUOTED IMAGE

But that picture is NOT awesome or phenomenal. The camera has done a pretty good job of exposing and focusing etc., but it takes far more than that to get "awesome" results. Even the focusing is not that great as the camera has focused on the wing and the head is soft, where a decent photographer would have focused on the eye.

To me, that is a very poor image. It would get pulled apart by any judge in even a local club competion and is not what I would call a saleable image. The camera has done a good job, the photographer has done a poor one. There is way too much clutter, the out of focus branch down the right hand side and across the whole lower third of the picture and is very distracting, especially as it is so bright. The out of focus bright blobs are also distracting. There are so many distracting elements that draw the eye, and so much clutter, that it takes a little time to actually find the subject, and then it is in an uninteresting pose, just sitting there, and the eye comes straight off it again. A professional, selling images, would need to do a lot better to make a living with their camera.

You use that image to make the point that anybody buying a camera can produce "good enough" images, but that isn't "good enough", not to my eye anyway. To me, you have made the opposite point. That image says that anybody can take a modern camera and get pictures that are well exposed and focused etc. but it takes somebody with a good eye for detail, lighting and composition to take "awesome" results.

As has been said, if you are truly worried about competition from people who have simply bought a camera and are offering cheap services, then you are targetting the wrong market. The people who pay for work of that low a quality will never pay decent money, and would get "uncle Bob" to do the shots if they can't find a cheap photographer.

I don't see how somebody buying a camera that way equates to them producing a cut price service either. If they are in business they will assess the cost and how it will build into their costs and pricing structure. I doubt they will look at something that increases their costs, and plan to lower their prices because of it. If they do, don't worry, they clearly are struggling to find ANY work and are so bad at business they will be gone very soon. For relatively new businesses, with a competent and experienced photographer, regular loans can be hard to find sometimes. OK, this one is a bit expensive (it is a lease though, so has big benefits in being 100% tax deductible, unlike regular finance) but if I needed an expensive specialist lens for a job, and knew that I would need it four or five times a year perhaps, is it better to rent it every time or lease it over two years, with a cheap buyout at the end to allow me to keep it? So long as the profit from the jobs I need it for (and which otherwise I would have to turn down) is high enough to justify the expense then it is not a problem. But that involves getting good money for the work, not selling it at cut price as you claim will happen.

If you are a good photographer, but unable to get cheaper finance options, this can allow you to get specialist equipment and open up new, profitable, avenues. If you are a poor photographer, buying equipment that you hope will make you a good photographer with this package, then you will still turn out a product that you have to price low to sell it. Either way, this is just an option for getting goods, it doesn't affect how much a photographer can charge for their work.




  
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Nov 20, 2014 14:51 |  #24

Phoenixkh wrote in post #17283951 (external link)
Well,

That's 5 minutes I'll never get back. ;)

On the other hand, I had never heard of Nebraska Furniture Mart. I'm a pretty loyal Amazon customer. I've been with them since their start-up, when all they sold was books.

Not many people have - they don't advertise out of the Midwest. And when I buy cash I go amazon but when I buy big stuff I get the interest free financing.


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Nov 20, 2014 15:03 |  #25

sandpiper wrote in post #17283961 (external link)
...it takes a little time to actually find the subject, and then it is in an uninteresting pose, just sitting there...

Dude, it's a bird. I hate to break it to you, but that's what birds do when they're in trees...


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John
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Nov 20, 2014 15:03 |  #26

Financing 101.

They should really teach this in high school at least along with Credit 101.


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moose10101
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Nov 20, 2014 15:25 |  #27

John wrote in post #17283992 (external link)
Financing 101.

They should really teach this in high school at least along with Credit 101.

They do here. But it doesn't sink in for everybody.




  
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umphotography
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Nov 20, 2014 15:31 |  #28

sandpiper wrote in post #17283961 (external link)
But that picture is NOT awesome or phenomenal. The camera has done a pretty good job of exposing and focusing etc., but it takes far more than that to get "awesome" results. Even the focusing is not that great as the camera has focused on the wing and the head is soft, where a decent photographer would have focused on the eye.

To me, that is a very poor image. It would get pulled apart by any judge in even a local club competion and is not what I would call a saleable image. The camera has done a good job, the photographer has done a poor one. There is way too much clutter, the out of focus branch down the right hand side and across the whole lower third of the picture and is very distracting, especially as it is so bright. The out of focus bright blobs are also distracting. There are so many distracting elements that draw the eye, and so much clutter, that it takes a little time to actually find the subject, and then it is in an uninteresting pose, just sitting there, and the eye comes straight off it again. A professional, selling images, would need to do a lot better to make a living with their camera.

You use that image to make the point that anybody buying a camera can produce "good enough" images, but that isn't "good enough", not to my eye anyway. To me, you have made the opposite point. That image says that anybody can take a modern camera and get pictures that are well exposed and focused etc. but it takes somebody with a good eye for detail, lighting and composition to take "awesome" results.

As has been said, if you are truly worried about competition from people who have simply bought a camera and are offering cheap services, then you are targetting the wrong market. The people who pay for work of that low a quality will never pay decent money, and would get "uncle Bob" to do the shots if they can't find a cheap photographer.

I don't see how somebody buying a camera that way equates to them producing a cut price service either. If they are in business they will assess the cost and how it will build into their costs and pricing structure. I doubt they will look at something that increases their costs, and plan to lower their prices because of it. If they do, don't worry, they clearly are struggling to find ANY work and are so bad at business they will be gone very soon. For relatively new businesses, with a competent and experienced photographer, regular loans can be hard to find sometimes. OK, this one is a bit expensive (it is a lease though, so has big benefits in being 100% tax deductible, unlike regular finance) but if I needed an expensive specialist lens for a job, and knew that I would need it four or five times a year perhaps, is it better to rent it every time or lease it over two years, with a cheap buyout at the end to allow me to keep it? So long as the profit from the jobs I need it for (and which otherwise I would have to turn down) is high enough to justify the expense then it is not a problem. But that involves getting good money for the work, not selling it at cut price as you claim will happen.

If you are a good photographer, but unable to get cheaper finance options, this can allow you to get specialist equipment and open up new, profitable, avenues. If you are a poor photographer, buying equipment that you hope will make you a good photographer with this package, then you will still turn out a product that you have to price low to sell it. Either way, this is just an option for getting goods, it doesn't affect how much a photographer can charge for their work.


Dude. It was a fricken test shot with a 7D2. Not a competition print type shot. I enter print comps so I know what they expect..... I tried to make a point about how good the cameras actually are these days......and of course...there is always someone who doesnt get it and starts to elaborate about print comps that have no relevence to this conversation.........R​eally. You dont get what this is about so lets talk about how wonderful I am with all my print comp info and print comp crap that is basically USELESS to the topic at hand. Unbelievable.

And No im not worried about uncle bob and his camera.

I run a successful business and have done so for the past 6 yrs. I photographed 26 weddings this past year, 30 the year prior. 20 plus for the past 5 yrs orior and im booked out a year in advance until i moved this year. So I get the business dude. So get with the conversation and stop trying to impress me with your print comp Bull****. BTW I scored an 89,91,94 and best in class the last PPA comp I entered. I dont do print comps much. I only do them to see where i stand with my peirs every every other year. So I know very well what print comp prints are all about.


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umphotography
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Nov 20, 2014 15:36 as a reply to  @ umphotography's post |  #29

I cant copy and paste the conversations that industry leading pros saying are tearing into this company about from DWFs private board. Ive asked a few to comment here if they have the time.

New photographers. This is a bad bad deal. Stay away from these types of business loan sharks........83% is what the interest rate computes out to. Get a credit card or pay pal and pay 18%... better yet,, get cash and buy with cash. But dont go into debt to start your business off on a bad foot with.


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Nov 20, 2014 15:52 |  #30

umphotography wrote in post #17283358 (external link)
a company that is now working with B&H and Adorama has a finance company that is peddling a very dangerous high priced plan to new and unsuspecting photographers to buy equipment. If you really do the math, you are paying 83% more for your products under this plan.

How are you getting 83%?

On a $10,000 investment they say the payment for 24 months is $866.67 monthly. Multiply that by 24 months and you get a total payment of $20,800 which is more than twice as much.

That is 208% more not 83%.

Also this is common in every aspect of this country. You should care less about this tiny company than the billion dollar industry of payday loans and cash advance that charge APR of like 800%


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