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FORUMS Post Processing, Marketing & Presenting Photos The Business of Photography 
Thread started 30 Dec 2014 (Tuesday) 23:05
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jkdjedi
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Dec 30, 2014 23:05 |  #1

Local website has asked if I could photograph for them at two sporting events coming up soon here in the Coachella Valley. A golf and tennis tournament on different dates. They are willing to pay for all expenses (mostly rental). They just ask I show them a receipt of the rental agreement. Is this uncommon? Especially if I'm volunteering my time, seems like if I'm gonna rent equipment and they have cash for that that maybe they can devi up some monies for my time as well? I had shared some of my photos on their Facebook page and that lead to some tickets for my family and me to a local zoo for an exchange of some photos of the day for their website. I volunteered more work for them at a local field hockey event the month after. I love the idea that I'm getting this experience to photograph at these local events with a media pass around my neck, I'd be sitting in front of the TV otherwise doing nothing. Anyway, I know my threads seem to get lost In translation, what am I asking here, am I getting taken advantage of, to nice maybe? Not sure.


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OhLook
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Dec 30, 2014 23:52 |  #2

jkdjedi wrote in post #17358427 (external link)
Local website has asked if I could photograph for them at two sporting events coming up soon . . . I know my threads seem to get lost In translation, what am I asking here, am I getting taken advantage of, to nice maybe? Not sure.

I think it comes down to this: Do you have a reason to donate your time and skills to the website that made the request? People give away their services when they volunteer for a good cause or when they're doing a favor for friends or family. I don't know what the connection is between you and the site owner(s)--are they friends, are they giving you something of value, and so on.

If you accept the offer, who will own the rights to the images will have to be settled in advance. There should be an agreement in writing.


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JacobPhoto
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Dec 31, 2014 00:36 |  #3

What exactly is your question?

A) Is it common for a client to pay you for expenses incurred in the process of shooting a gig?
B) Should a "local website" pay photographers for photos that are sent to them?

I don't quite understand what this "local website" is. Is it a newspaper or similar media site? Is it a local business association? Do they offer advertising or have other revenue streams?

If you don't "volunteer" to do the shooting, do you think they would be able to find another sucker... err.... photographer to shoot for free? or would they just not run any content?


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bk2life
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Dec 31, 2014 00:59 |  #4

How long is the event, how many photos are you taking, how long are you going to edit said photos on your own time after the event? An all-day event could be thousands pf pictures. That’s a good week of editing on your own time afterwards.

Many people always forget after the events are over, the photographer is still working on the event for many, many hours or days later..


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jkdjedi
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Dec 31, 2014 01:24 as a reply to  @ bk2life's post |  #5

All good questions, it's an advertising website for the Coachella Valley, they cover public events and everyday life here in the valley, they are all over social media as well. I didn't know it initially but the owners wife son is seriously dating my niece! So it's kinda for family. I'm thinking of saying thanks, but no thanks. If they had the equipment ready in hand for me to use (instead of using mine) I'd still have to think about it, but now that they've explained by text that they reimburse your rental expenses makes me really think, they can pay for your rental but not you.. Hmmm.


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Dan ­ Marchant
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Dec 31, 2014 02:30 |  #6

If they are a charity you support or maybe friends/family then working for free is fine. If it is a commercial venture set up to make money then, given that they are or hope to benefit financially from using my images, then I would expect to be paid.

One problem however is that you already set the value of your work at, or close to, zero by giving them previous images for free/in exchange for zoo tickets. Once you have done that it becomes very difficult to get them to pay anything approaching a reasonable rate for future images.


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groundloop
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Dec 31, 2014 10:43 |  #7

jkdjedi wrote in post #17358427 (external link)
.... I love the idea that I'm getting this experience to photograph at these local events with a media pass around my neck, I'd be sitting in front of the TV otherwise doing nothing.....


Well then do it. Sure you'd be getting taken advantage of to some degree, but you'd also be taking advantage of them in that you're getting media access and some great experience. It doesn't sound like you earn much of any income from photography anyway, so it's not like you're giving up income to do this.




  
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dkizzle
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Dec 31, 2014 11:06 |  #8

How about you tell them that you can't do it because you have a paid gig the same day and see how they respond. If they respond with some notation that you are being compensated because they are paying for equipment rental you should tell them that you are not getting compensated for the time & effort it would take you to pickup & return rented equipment, pay for rental equipment upfront, travel time to and from event, time spent covering event, time spent post processing pictures, communicating with client and more. So many tasks all add up to hours of pro bono work you are doing. If on the other hand they catch your hint about "other paid gig" you might have a chance to discuss getting properly compensated for your work. They run a commercial enterprise and their intent is to make money. Are they asking every vendor involved to work for free and only willing to compensate for expenses they incur to make the event happen? Are they asking the party planner to do the event for free and to pay for all supplies upfront with promise to repay with the proof of rental agreement? The event planner would possibly have to rent a large vehicle (truck) and travel to the rental place, load up rented equipment, transport to the event, unload and setup, complete the event, load up again and return back to the rental place of equipment & truck rental.

There are people in the world who like to take advantage of others. If they see you as easy prey they will try to take advantage of you again and again. Take your stand.


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Hogloff
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Dec 31, 2014 19:53 |  #9
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dkizzle wrote in post #17359066 (external link)
How about you tell them that you can't do it because you have a paid gig the same day and see how they respond. If they respond with some notation that you are being compensated because they are paying for equipment rental you should tell them that you are not getting compensated for the time & effort it would take you to pickup & return rented equipment, pay for rental equipment upfront, travel time to and from event, time spent covering event, time spent post processing pictures, communicating with client and more. So many tasks all add up to hours of pro bono work you are doing. If on the other hand they catch your hint about "other paid gig" you might have a chance to discuss getting properly compensated for your work. They run a commercial enterprise and their intent is to make money. Are they asking every vendor involved to work for free and only willing to compensate for expenses they incur to make the event happen? Are they asking the party planner to do the event for free and to pay for all supplies upfront with promise to repay with the proof of rental agreement? The event planner would possibly have to rent a large vehicle (truck) and travel to the rental place, load up rented equipment, transport to the event, unload and setup, complete the event, load up again and return back to the rental place of equipment & truck rental.

There are people in the world who like to take advantage of others. If they see you as easy prey they will try to take advantage of you again and again. Take your stand.

Not a good way to start a career by lying. If you are not comfortable at not getting compensated for your time, tell them that. Lying about another gig conflicting is just...well lying. Be upfront and you'll get ahead in life. Lie your way through life and sooner or later you'll get caught with your pants down.




  
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dkizzle
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Jan 01, 2015 07:40 |  #10

I was not suggesting that he resorts to lying to get his career started. I doubt it would be a good start to a career where OP has to work for free and invest his own money into making someone else rich. I only suggested a way to get out of doing free work and at the same time to giving website owners a hint. I never said to use it as a way to extort payment from website operators. My suggestion was to check for their reaction. Either they will get the hint and provide some sort of compensation or continue running their for profit website and find another sucker.


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gonzogolf
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Jan 01, 2015 08:09 as a reply to  @ dkizzle's post |  #11

Telling them he has a paid gig on a day he has already said he would be available isnt lying? The OP has rhe option to follow through, or cancel for valid reasons. No reason to be duplicitous.




  
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Old ­ Coot
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Jan 01, 2015 08:12 |  #12

dkizzle wrote in post #17359066 (external link)
There are people in the world who like to take advantage of others. If they see you as easy prey they will try to take advantage of you again and again. Take your stand.

I learned this lesson myself after being approached by a digital magazine to shoot some Nascar races for them. I would receive a press pass for covering practice, qualifying and the race. No payment for the images, no compensation for travel, meals, etc...just a press pass as a reward. I would have to hand over the memory cards after the event and not be able to keep any images for myself.
I told him that I would think about it, walked away and never looked back. If my pictures were good enough for his magazine, they are good enough to receive payment for providing them.


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PineBomb
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Jan 01, 2015 08:48 |  #13

Old Coot wrote in post #17360253 (external link)
No payment for the images, no compensation for travel, meals, etc...just a press pass as a reward. I would have to hand over the memory cards after the event and not be able to keep any images for myself.

Whoa. This--ahem, opportunity--didn't even afford you images? That magazine's got some balls. Good diplomatic response on your part. Had it been me, my response might have lacked that quality.


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Left ­ Handed ­ Brisket
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Jan 01, 2015 08:52 |  #14

jkdjedi wrote in post #17358533 (external link)
All good questions, it's an advertising website for the Coachella Valley, they cover public events and everyday life here in the valley, they are all over social media as well. I didn't know it initially but the owners wife son is seriously dating my niece! So it's kinda for family. I'm thinking of saying thanks, but no thanks. If they had the equipment ready in hand for me to use (instead of using mine) I'd still have to think about it, but now that they've explained by text that they reimburse your rental expenses makes me really think, they can pay for your rental but not you.. Hmmm.

so it's a for profit enterprise?

Volunteering is for charitable organizations and some non-profits. Sounds like you are being taken advantage of. Many non-profits have plenty of budgeted dollars to cover such expenses, a for profit should definitely have budgeted dollars. If not they don't deserve to be in business.

At the very least you should have some kind of "in kind" agreement, where all your work is shown with your copyright attached. You might even go so far as to require an "about the photographer" page on their website with links to your website.

I volunteer for some NPOs but always get photo credit and my logo on event signage and promotional material, this is literally the least they could do. All my volunteer work has turned into paid work from when the organizations had the funds for the particular project.


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Left ­ Handed ­ Brisket
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Jan 01, 2015 08:55 |  #15

PineBomb wrote in post #17360271 (external link)
Whoa. This--ahem, opportunity--didn't even afford you images? That magazine's got some balls. Good diplomatic response on your part. Had it been me, my response might have lacked that quality.

unfortunately this is becoming more and more common.

The magazine has balls because they have been enabled by "photographers" working for free. if there were thousands of plumbers across the country that would fix your plumbing for the love of the job, the same would happen in that industry.


PSA: The above post may contain sarcasm, reply at your own risk | Not in gear database: Auto Sears 50mm 2.0 / 3x CL-360, Nikon SB-28, SunPak auto 322 D, Minolta 20

  
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