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FORUMS Photography Talk by Genre General Photography Talk 
Thread started 31 Dec 2014 (Wednesday) 08:12
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GoPro in Bowling Alley leads to Confrontation

 
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JeffreyG
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Jan 01, 2015 18:50 |  #106

Hogloff wrote in post #17361124 (external link)
Exactly. If the OP was filming my family out for a fun night of bowling...the cops would have to come for a different reason.

For what? To arrest you for assault? That's kind of the implied threat I'm reading into your comment.

OP...my advice is grow up a bit.

Mature people don't commit assaults in response to having their picture taken. Or threaten it.

I guess it's easy to talk tough, but the reality is that you really can only assault the OP if you don't mind doing some time in jail and are otherwise broke. If you have assets, and you punch someone for taking your picture in public, you are going to be sued and you are going to lose a very significant amount of money.

I really don't understand such visceral reactions to some guy in a bowling alley making a video. If I was there and saw him, I might think it odd. I can understand some people who are really self conscious being uncomfortable and even asking the OP to stop. But a lot of people are acting as though being filmed while out in public is some kind of gross violation.

What are you all.....compulsive nose pickers?  :p


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Jan 01, 2015 19:04 |  #107

StanNJ1 wrote in post #17361153 (external link)
Ok I see we are going to continue down the same irrational road.
I wasn't filming anyone's family. I wasn't hovering over a child as someone else here implied. I in fact didn't change my walking pace, didn't change the camera angle, didn't target anyone individually. It was a non stop panning motion. And you want to compare this to someone walking into a person's backyard and filming them with their wife in their hot tub? Does this sound rational to you?

Don't you know, this is the internet the home of the keyboard warriors :-P

For me, you made a minor faux pas. You asked for clarification on here and agreed with the advice you were given. Ignore the silly comments and exaggerated scenarios, people must have fuzzy heads from hangovers clouding sensible judgments ......... :)


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HappySnapper90
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Jan 01, 2015 20:25 |  #108

StanNJ1 wrote in post #17359014 (external link)
Please tell me where it says that I claimed sex/age had anything to do with it. I merely included those details for the purposes of conveying my story. Also nothing strange for mentioning that she appeared to be a manager of some sort. Most comments here have been helpful and educational. Please keep it that way.

Then why did you make such a point to call out they were female and their ages? It paints it to make you think their opinions less valid. If I deal with a worker at a company their age and sex are immaterial.




  
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Jan 01, 2015 20:38 |  #109

HappySnapper90 wrote in post #17361285 (external link)
Then why did you make such a point to call out they were female and their ages? It paints it to make you think their opinions less valid. If I deal with a worker at a company their age and sex are immaterial.

Posts like these suggest that this thread has run dry of anything helpful. Perhaps it's time to call it a day.


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Jan 01, 2015 20:39 |  #110

I agree. But, it has been a popcorn page turner!



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Hogloff
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Jan 01, 2015 20:52 |  #111
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gmm213 wrote in post #17361133 (external link)
People can have whatever messed up reasons they want doesn't mean they're rational, though they can have them. At the same time I don't need to respect crap. Especially because my filming isn't illegal.

Might not be illegal but it still does not make it right. Would you appreciate it if I came up to you and your wife / girlfriend during a romantic dinner and started filming you for the rest of the evening...and then do a strategic edit and post some not so nice sequences to FB? I bet you would be over joyed.

See...even though I am legally in the right to do this....I have morals that also dictate what I can and cannot do. It sure is good that most of our living lives are ruled by our morals and not by the law.




  
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Hogloff
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Jan 01, 2015 20:59 |  #112
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JeffreyG wrote in post #17361175 (external link)
For what? To arrest you for assault? That's kind of the implied threat I'm reading into your comment.

Mature people don't commit assaults in response to having their picture taken. Or threaten it.

I guess it's easy to talk tough, but the reality is that you really can only assault the OP if you don't mind doing some time in jail and are otherwise broke. If you have assets, and you punch someone for taking your picture in public, you are going to be sued and you are going to lose a very significant amount of money.

I really don't understand such visceral reactions to some guy in a bowling alley making a video. If I was there and saw him, I might think it odd. I can understand some people who are really self conscious being uncomfortable and even asking the OP to stop. But a lot of people are acting as though being filmed while out in public is some kind of gross violation.

What are you all.....compulsive nose pickers?  :p

Jeffery, I always follow the implied law of do unto others as you would like done onto you. I will not film other people unless I ask their permission because that us what I would expect of them. There does not need to be a law laid out for normal decent behavior.

This entire situation could have been averted by asking permission in the first place. Sometimes even though you are within your rights as far as the law goes...you are not in your rights as far as your morals goes.




  
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Hogloff
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Jan 01, 2015 21:02 |  #113
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HappySnapper90 wrote in post #17361285 (external link)
Then why did you make such a point to call out they were female and their ages? It paints it to make you think their opinions less valid. If I deal with a worker at a company their age and sex are immaterial.

BINGO. Explicitly saying their age and gender right off the bat tells me a lot about you. Would your reaction been different if the person that originally talked to you was a 45 year old male with a bunch of tattoos weighing 230 lbs?




  
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JeffreyG
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Jan 01, 2015 21:04 |  #114

Hogloff wrote in post #17361305 (external link)
Might not be illegal but it still does not make it right. Would you appreciate it if I came up to you and your wife / girlfriend during a romantic dinner and started filming you for the rest of the evening...and then do a strategic edit and post some not so nice sequences to FB? I bet you would be over joyed.

First, a rational couple in your scenario would ask the photographer to stop. If he refused, then they would call over the waitstaff and ask them to make him stop. That's basically what happened to the OP in a nutshell.

If the same scenario happened in a purely public space, the couple could still start by asking the photographer to stop. They could then either leave or put up with it if rebuffed.

But also notice that your scenario, which is a close moment for a couple is a bit more private in feel than groups bowling. But that's not really important, if we just look at your second point.

See...even though I am legally in the right to do this....I have morals that also dictate what I can and cannot do. It sure is good that most of our living lives are ruled by our morals and not by the law.

I think calling this moral or immoral is overstating the importance of the situation. I see it as something like a scale where shooting some random people out on the street (street photography) with a goal of creating interesting images to be perfectly fine. Shooting people in a situation where they would prefer to be left alone is rude, especially when you are obvious about it and refuse to stop when asked. And only if you are shooting people in public with the express purpose of trying to make them look bad for the purpose of ridicule are we starting to talk about immoral behavior.

Just taking pictures of strangers isn't immoral, and it isn't even rude if you are discreet about it.


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JeffreyG
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Jan 01, 2015 21:22 |  #115

Hogloff wrote in post #17361317 (external link)
Jeffery, I always follow the implied law of do unto others as you would like done onto you. I will not film other people unless I ask their permission because that us what I would expect of them. There does not need to be a law laid out for normal decent behavior.

I don't know how to take this comment. You are the one who suggested that you would likely assault a photographer for taking your picture in public. That pretty much destroys any calls to decency you might make afterwards. You threaten rudeness with a violent attack, and then ask us to behave?

I know one person who has suffered chronic pain for 40 years after he was punched in the face (once) while trying to collect his newspaper money as a 13 year old delivery boy. Two men in Michigan have died this year, each after receiving a single punch in a situation where some hothead lost his cool.

Throw a punch, and feel lucky when your victim takes you just for every penny you own. Get unlucky and spend the rest of your life in prison like some hotheads found out here.

This entire situation could have been averted by asking permission in the first place. Sometimes even though you are within your rights as far as the law goes...you are not in your rights as far as your morals goes.

Asking permission of a large group is impractical. Asking permission before shooting street photography would also be impractical. But not stopping after being asked reasonably would be rude, in my opinion.

Basically I just don't want to defend either end of the spectrum here too much. People just need to understand that being in public means you do not have expectations of privacy. And people taking pictures of strangers in public should be aware and sensitive to the fact that some people do not like to have their picture taken. I'd accommodate these people as much as practical as a photographer, but I'm also not going to cave in and put my camera away every time some paranoid parent starts in on me when I'm minding my own business.


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Hogloff
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Jan 01, 2015 22:10 |  #116
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JeffreyG wrote in post #17361328 (external link)
First, a rational couple in your scenario would ask the photographer to stop. If he refused, then they would call over the waitstaff and ask them to make him stop. That's basically what happened to the OP in a nutshell.

If the same scenario happened in a purely public space, the couple could still start by asking the photographer to stop. They could then either leave or put up with it if rebuffed.

But also notice that your scenario, which is a close moment for a couple is a bit more private in feel than groups bowling. But that's not really important, if we just look at your second point.

I think calling this moral or immoral is overstating the importance of the situation. I see it as something like a scale where shooting some random people out on the street (street photography) with a goal of creating interesting images to be perfectly fine. Shooting people in a situation where they would prefer to be left alone is rude, especially when you are obvious about it and refuse to stop when asked. And only if you are shooting people in public with the express purpose of trying to make them look bad for the purpose of ridicule are we starting to talk about immoral behavior.

Just taking pictures of strangers isn't immoral, and it isn't even rude if you are discreet about it.

It becomes immoral and rude when the stranger says they don't want to be photographed. That is exactly what occurred in this instance. Personally, I would have at least cleared it with the staff before shooting video of strangers in their facility. I also would not have made it a scene...which the OP obviously did since 2nd level management had to come talk with the OP about the situation. First indication of a stranger not wanting to be photographed and I would stop...no questions asked. Again...like I said you might be within the law to photograph strangers in public places, but if the stranger does not want to be photographed then I think a moral law comes into affect. This is just common decency which we don't neec written laws to dictate.




  
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Jan 01, 2015 22:15 |  #117

Hogloff wrote in post #17361423 (external link)
It becomes immoral and rude when the stranger says they don't want to be photographed. That is exactly what occurred in this instance. . . . I . . . would not have made it a scene...which the OP obviously did since 2nd level management had to come talk with the OP about the situation. First indication of a stranger not wanting to be photographed and I would stop...no questions asked.

The OP did stop when an employee told him to. That was his first indication that anyone objected; a customer didn't tell him directly. It isn't clear, let alone obvious, that he made a scene.


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Jan 01, 2015 22:26 |  #118

Hogloff wrote in post #17361423 (external link)
It becomes immoral and rude when the stranger says they don't want to be photographed. That is exactly what occurred in this instance. Personally, I would have at least cleared it with the staff before shooting video of strangers in their facility. I also would not have made it a scene...which the OP obviously did since 2nd level management had to come talk with the OP about the situation. First indication of a stranger not wanting to be photographed and I would stop...no questions asked. Again...like I said you might be within the law to photograph strangers in public places, but if the stranger does not want to be photographed then I think a moral law comes into affect. This is just common decency which we don't neec written laws to dictate.

Substituting the real facts of what happened for a scenario that you have created out of thin air speaks volumes about your integrity and your agenda.
The actual facts that were disclosed and then repeated are nothing like the fantasy you have created.

Moderators what do you say? About time to stop the madness?


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Jan 01, 2015 22:43 |  #119

JeffreyG wrote in post #17360666 (external link)
That's the important point, when possible it's a good idea to be polite and at least hear out people's requests if they do not want to be photographed. If capturing strangers isn't important to your photography then it doesn't hurt to stop. But it's also a good idea to understand your rights in case you are asked to do something you are not willing to do.....like a parent asking you to put away your camera at the park when you are there to shoot your own kids, or a police officer demanding that you cannot take their picture.

I also don't like the implication that taking pictures of strangers is somehow unethical. Personally I don't pursue what is known as street photography and so I'm generally not shooting strangers. But I don't think street photography is inherently unethical. Hillbillie's comments suggested that all those people at the bowling alley should sue the OP for violating their privacy. That's just ludicrous and not just because any such suit would be thrown out immediately. What's the harm here? How were these people injured by what the OP was doing?

I agree, it is ludicrous, and I also agree that street photography isn't unethical (I have lots of street photos on my flickr, I rather enjoy it), but this wasn't street photography, this was a random video in a private facility which I'm sure was harmless, but it wasn't perceived that way and thus should have been stopped without question.

I've been asked to stop taking pictures of an officer before (actually just one shot with him in the frame, he wasn't the subject, his car was) and I did stand up for myself, which made him get in my face and repeatedly tell me "You can't do that" without actually telling me why. I probably would've been put in hand cuffs had my friend not been there. He was clearly nervous and uncomfortable and just wanted to move on so I agreed to delete the photo, showed the officer I deleted it and then walked away angry as hell. My friend made me more angry because he told me "Police just make me nervous", but that's a whole other topic of discussion that I don't think we should get into... ;) lol


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Jan 01, 2015 22:45 |  #120

StanNJ1 wrote in post #17361450 (external link)
Moderators what do you say? About time to stop the madness?

If you want the thread to be closed, Report the thread to a moderator, anyway this thread have been totally twisted, so it does not make any sens anymore ;)


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GoPro in Bowling Alley leads to Confrontation
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