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FORUMS Canon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon EOS Digital Cameras 
Thread started 29 Dec 2014 (Monday) 01:58
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5D3 vs. 7D2 Field Test (Focus, Focus, Focus...)

 
wallstreetoneil
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Jan 02, 2015 08:52 |  #16

just wanted to say thanks for doing this work - numbers don't lie and data helps everyone

i own a 7D2, use it for ice hockey, and 2 5D3s for weddings

i'm also a Math / Stats guy so I think I can comment a little


Comments in no particular order
1) what is interesting is that from your initial pictures, even though the 5D had a higher keeper rate, you actually have more keepers from the 7D2 as it took more pictures (this is either a frame rate thing which in of itself speaks volumes - or you just used it more - my guess is there is some of both)

2) as you used the 7D2 more your keepers have gone up

3) you are somewhat stacking the % against the 7D2 as you are comparing it at 10fps vs 6FPs with the 5D3 - you can and should / but also shouldn't (if you get my meaning) adjust for this and go into the 7D2's menu and reduce the Low Speed Continuous to 6FPS and my bet is the 7D2 will get even better

4) for hockey, where possible, i have settled on Expanded 4pt (kind of supported by your data) - my mathematical guess is that when humans like us are handholding long lens and filing the frame on a pixel dense camera, you are basically screwing yourself by using Spot Focus when there is any movement at all

5) to have out of the box, once your experience has found the correct settings, of in focus pictures at anything close to 80% using 10fps is about as good as it is going to get on a $1800 camera

6) If you want to get better, you are going to have to really master the setting AND you are going to have to spend the half day required to MFA the lens that you are using at 10fps - this is a must if you really car about getting 80% up to 90%+ (80% is pretty good but 90% is 1Dx territory)

7) I think your expanded 8 > expanded 4 > single point - basically confirms what I would contend in pt 4 - especially as YOU are tracking moving skiers - and if you are getting 90% using expanded 8 then this camera is a success

8) given what I said in #7 (if it is true), I would like to see you try expanded 8 with CASE 2 (which you contend is too slow) but tracking Cross country skiers with CASE 5 (erratic moving subjects) doesn't 'sound' correct as they are not humming birds - I use Case 2 with adjustments (-2,1,0) for hockey and hockey players are way more erratic than any cross country skier


great work - thanks for all the data


paul


Hockey and wedding photographer. Favourite camera / lens combos: a 1DX II with a Tamron 45 1.8 VC, an A7Rii with a Canon 24-70F2.8L II, and a 5DSR with a Tamron 85 1.8 VC. Every lens I own I strongly recommend [Canon (35Lii, 100L Macro, 24-70F2.8ii, 70-200F2.8ii, 100-400Lii), Tamron (45 1.8, 85 1.8), Sigma 24-105]. If there are better lenses out there let me know because I haven't found them.

  
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ppmax
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Jan 02, 2015 11:23 as a reply to  @ wallstreetoneil's post |  #17

Thanks for a great post Paul--much appreciated. I'd like to comment on each of the excellent points you made:
>>1) what is interesting is that from your initial pictures, even though the 5D had a higher keeper rate, you actually have more keepers from the 7D2 as it took more pictures (this is either a frame rate thing which in of itself speaks volumes - or you just used it more - my guess is there is some of both)
Indeed--at this point I think I've taken 2x-3x more shots with the 7D2, and the keeper rate with the 5D3 would probably normalize lower, given the increased number of pics.

>>2) as you used the 7D2 more your keepers have gone up
True, and I'm happier than I was initially... however I am still confounded by a few misses, which I'll show below. Any comments on these?

>>3) you are somewhat stacking the % against the 7D2 as you are comparing it at 10fps vs 6FPs with the 5D3 - you can and should / but also shouldn't (if you get my meaning) adjust for this and go into the 7D2's menu and reduce the Low Speed Continuous to 6FPS and my bet is the 7D2 will get even better
True again. Another poster (perhaps in another forum) suggested I retard the 7D2 FPS to 6 to see what I get. This is a good point and I may do so weather permitting. Incidentally, I only noticed the 7D2 slow down once or twice in full auto mode with the 1st and 2nd image priority set to focus priority.

>>4) for hockey, where possible, i have settled on Expanded 4pt (kind of supported by your data) - my mathematical guess is that when humans like us are handholding long lens and filing the frame on a pixel dense camera, you are basically screwing yourself by using Spot Focus when there is any movement at all
Expanded 4pt and Expanded 8pt are great modes...and I also believe that when shooting a zoom and filling the frame there are times when the entire focus target may be filled with a single block of color (e.g. someones chest or back) which may not provide enough contrast for a single point. (For what it's worth I think we are talking about Single Point AF rather than Single Point Spot AF).

In addition, my keeper rate for Expanded 4pt and Expanded 8pt may be lower than it would normally be, since I also used this mode to practice some low shutter-speed panning shots which...which were blurry for some other reasons ;) Bascially I need more practice with high-velocity, low shutter-speed panning. Out of curiosity, when shooting panning (not on a tripod) do you disable IS?

>>5) to have out of the box, once your experience has found the correct settings, of in focus pictures at anything close to 80% using 10fps is about as good as it is going to get on a $1800 camera
I am coming to this conclusion...I don't have any experience with the 1D series so my expectations are based upon what I could achieve with my older 7D and the 5D3

>>6) If you want to get better, you are going to have to really master the setting AND you are going to have to spend the half day required to MFA the lens that you are using at 10fps - this is a must if you really car about getting 80% up to 90%+ (80% is pretty good but 90% is 1Dx territory)
I've MFA'd my 70-200 f/4 IS USM (which took +3 to really nail it)...but as mentioned above am still confounded by some really erratic front focusing now and then. I also found that when shooting the Tokina 11-16 at 11mm I had lots of front focusing (as shown in the picture of my daughter). It may be that this is related to having Lens drive when AF impossible set to on...which I will disable next time to test.

>>7) I think your expanded 8 > expanded 4 > single point - basically confirms what I would contend in pt 4 - especially as YOU are tracking moving skiers - and if you are getting 90% using expanded 8 then this camera is a success
I tend to follow/track the subject as closely as possible regardless of which AF mode I'm in. I never shot Zone AF or All Points AF mode much in the past...so perhaps my technique in these modes is not correct. When shooting Zone AF or All Points AF, do most folks hold the camera steady and let the AF Tracking do the work?

>>8) given what I said in #7 (if it is true), I would like to see you try expanded 8 with CASE 2 (which you contend is too slow) but tracking Cross country skiers with CASE 5 (erratic moving subjects) doesn't 'sound' correct as they are not humming birds - I use Case 2 with adjustments (-2,1,0) for hockey and hockey players are way more erratic than any cross country skier
I chose Case 5 because the skier's heads (my focus target) tends to bob and weave a lot...I will try Expanded with Case 2 again...to be more precise, when I have tried this mode I have been setting the focus point on (or as near as possible) on the skier's head as they skate past me. If you can imagine, I am standing to the side of a race track, I lock focus as the skier approaches, and then pan with them as they approach and skate by. I believe this scenario is challenging for the AF system because for a while the skier's motion is primarily related to changing distance, which then transitions to side-to-side as the frame is filled.


Here are a few shots that I'm trying to analyze to see where the error occurred:

Is this lens shake (I was panning) or perhaps a shift in the lens IS as I snapped the frame? I believe this was 1/3200 SS:

IMAGE: https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7468/16169631582_a32bd5452a_b.jpg
IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/qCRA​8q  (external link)

This was shot at 1/1600 and he was going pretty slowly...the camera missed all in a sequence of 3; Expanded 4pt AF:
IMAGE: https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7507/16150270536_4a96f24b90_o.jpg
IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/qB9m​Lh  (external link)

This one was front focused by about 3 feet (the tips of his skis were in focus). This Expanded 8pt AF and I would have expected focus to be either on the head or the closest hand:
IMAGE: https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7470/16150300246_2c2006f7e5_b.jpg
IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/qB9v​Aw  (external link)


Thanks again for the comments and suggestions--much appreciated
PP

Canon 1DX Mark II, EF 100-400 f/4.5-5.6 IS USM Mark II, EF 70-200mm f/4L IS USM, EF 24-105mm f/4L IS USM, EF 50mm f/1.4
Rokinon 85mm f/1.4 AS IF, 14mm f/2.8 ED AS IF UMC

  
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DanC.Licks
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Post edited over 4 years ago by DanC.Licks.
     
Jan 02, 2015 11:54 |  #18

I have found with my E-M1 that even though it has an excellent 5 axis IS system built in that works wonders, as soon as I can get the shutter speeds up high enough (1.5x focal length and above) I get better results without it, and I would assume it would be the same with a lens with IS built in. The first shot definitely shows movement, but it does not look like typical camera shake. The other two suggest the same, combined with misfocus. I would bet it has to do with the IS. In that kind of light I don't think you would need IS.

PS
Small world! I used to play Little League baseball in North Boulder Park, back in the days when Kalmia Ave, (where I lived) was one street short of the city limit!




  
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wallstreetoneil
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Jan 02, 2015 12:33 as a reply to  @ ppmax's post |  #19

A lot of good replies - thanks.

Never thought about the cross country skiers crazily moving heads but yeah that is really an erratic and bobbing target. With that fact alone, I might, especially with the unbelievable light outside you have, maybe even up the F-stop to 4.5 - 5.6 to gain that extra 50cm or so of critical DoF. There are two other things that I'm guessing might help a lot and that is, there is a natural cadence to a skier before and at the end of a thrust where the head isn't accelerating so much and it might just make more sense to target their torso for focus as even at F4, 135mm and 30feet from target you have 70cm of critical DoF of which 33cm is front of center so that is easily enough to capture a sharp face (less so @ F2.8, 200mm at 20ft).

Good to see you MFA your zoom. I did it on all my lens when I got the 7D2 (never for the 5D3 - but I wan't really shooting fast moving sports as much as I am now) and my 70-200II required +8, the 70-200 F4 was +6 I think, the 135L was +11 and my 85L was +12 (it is now deadly sharp at even F1.2)

in terms of panning blur, I have ZERO experience with panning but I think it is something I want to start trying with hockey but something is clearly wrong with those pictures as those are crazy high shutter speeds to have ANY blur - my guess is it is the lens / IS / something - no way should that be happening (you might want to ask the guys who shoot race cars or other such things as i'm sure they have figured it out)


keep up the good work


paul


Hockey and wedding photographer. Favourite camera / lens combos: a 1DX II with a Tamron 45 1.8 VC, an A7Rii with a Canon 24-70F2.8L II, and a 5DSR with a Tamron 85 1.8 VC. Every lens I own I strongly recommend [Canon (35Lii, 100L Macro, 24-70F2.8ii, 70-200F2.8ii, 100-400Lii), Tamron (45 1.8, 85 1.8), Sigma 24-105]. If there are better lenses out there let me know because I haven't found them.

  
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ppmax
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Jan 02, 2015 14:48 as a reply to  @ wallstreetoneil's post |  #20

Thanks again for the replies. I want back and re-read my 70-200 manual and will be disabling IS when I'm in conditions like this again.

>>PS
>>Small world! I used to play Little League baseball in North Boulder Park, back in the days when Kalmia Ave, (where I lived) was one street short of the city limit!

Ha! That was before my time...I'm a recent Bay Area transplant. Do you ever really get used to the winters? ;)

PP


Canon 1DX Mark II, EF 100-400 f/4.5-5.6 IS USM Mark II, EF 70-200mm f/4L IS USM, EF 24-105mm f/4L IS USM, EF 50mm f/1.4
Rokinon 85mm f/1.4 AS IF, 14mm f/2.8 ED AS IF UMC

  
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ppmax
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Jan 04, 2015 20:38 as a reply to  @ ppmax's post |  #21

In case anyone is interested, here are some results from Day 3 with the 7D2 shooting x-country skiers/skaters. As mentioned previously, I set 1st and 2nd image priority to focus, disabled IS completely, and turned Drive when AF impossible to Off. Disabling IS made a big difference: my in focus shots no longer had a "smear" or a slight double image. (My bad!)

Before showing the results, I should say that I was "experimenting" so I believe the keeper rate is a bit lower than it would have been otherwise. Having said that, there were many shots where the AF system either missed hugely or front focused big time. These "big misses" are my confidence-killing remaining concern, and I finally made the decision to send the camera to Canon and will be sending in to the NJ facility tomorrow. (Thanks to Methodical for answering my questions). Lastly, these "big misses" are really perplexing...I use BBF and "lock" on the target for a more than a second (perhaps 2 secs) before squeezing the trigger...giving the AF system plenty of time to track the subject.

On to more charts and graphs:

IMAGE: https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7500/16015023959_00d3f671d9_o.jpg
IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/qpcb​EK  (external link)

I'd also mention that having seen some near full-size frames from other 7D2 shooters, I think I've been too critical in my Red, Yellow, Green labeling scheme. I've been reviewing photos at 100% and anything not crisp and sharp was labeled as a "near miss" (Yellow). Compared to other 7D2 pics I've seen these would probably be labeled as Green (in focus) despite the AF system missing by some incremental degree. This factor would increase the number of Green shots in my charts, but probably wouldn't affect the overall total keeper rate since a Red label for me meant a clear AF miss, which look soft even when viewing the image at 25%.

Now for some sample images...

These are a collection of Yellow's and Greens resized to 1920 across. All images processed with DPP 4 with default sharpening settings. I can see that some of them need some exposure and color work...but I was in a rush so I tweaked some curves and brightness on a few...not a lot of processing. Im definitely happy with these. All taken with 70-200L f/4 IS USM in AF Servo mode (using a variety of different AF Cases and area focus modes).

Link to Flickr album:
https://www.flickr.com …x/sets/72157649​710061129/ (external link)

IMAGE: https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8602/16014057230_cd4a01735b_b.jpg
IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/qp7e​i1  (external link)

IMAGE: https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7555/16175547946_d80edec233_b.jpg
IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/qDnU​RG  (external link)

IMAGE: https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8674/15581583173_6116ae2dcd_b.jpg
IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/pJTF​PK  (external link)

IMAGE: https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8596/16175551746_4279bed030_b.jpg
IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/qDnV​Zd  (external link)

IMAGE: https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8644/16015308489_72522c5935_b.jpg
IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/qpdD​fr  (external link)

IMAGE: https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8667/16199526391_7d0794e025_b.jpg
IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/qFuN​Pa  (external link)

IMAGE: https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7510/16199526231_57a658894a_b.jpg
IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/qFuN​Lp  (external link)


Anyways, I hope this helps someone else who is having questions or problems about their new body.

thx--
PP

Canon 1DX Mark II, EF 100-400 f/4.5-5.6 IS USM Mark II, EF 70-200mm f/4L IS USM, EF 24-105mm f/4L IS USM, EF 50mm f/1.4
Rokinon 85mm f/1.4 AS IF, 14mm f/2.8 ED AS IF UMC

  
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Lupo-Lobo
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Jan 05, 2015 01:03 |  #22

Very interesting and informative. Thanks for your time and effort.


Lupo

  
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DanC.Licks
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Jan 05, 2015 02:41 |  #23

MUCH better!:-)

IS is a crutch: great when you need it but a hindrance when you don't.




  
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Pondrader
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Jan 05, 2015 06:49 |  #24

Great stuff right there PP, nice documentation


Jeff ........, 7D, 70-300L, 100-400LII
flickr (external link)

  
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LonelyBoy
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Jan 05, 2015 10:02 |  #25

DanC.Licks wrote in post #17362257 (external link)
PS
Small world! I used to play Little League baseball in North Boulder Park, back in the days when Kalmia Ave, (where I lived) was one street short of the city limit!

Wow, I used to live on Kalmia Ave, too! After you, though. Tiny world indeed.


https://www.flickr.com​/photos/127590681@N03/ (external link)
I love a like, but feedback (including CC) is even better!

  
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DanC.Licks
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Jan 05, 2015 15:15 |  #26

604.:-)




  
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CamaroSS
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Jan 06, 2015 10:57 |  #27

I just wanted to add that I'm sending my 7D2 into Canon Professional Services this week. I spoke on the phone for a little over half an hour about my issues and they would neither confirm nor deny there was an issue, but the level of information they were seeking from me leads me to believe they're at least aware of something. It's also the first time they didn't ask me for a lens because "it's happening with all your lenses" so they want to test it on a variety of lenses.

Plain and simple, I have experienced extremely inconsistent autofocus with this camera...well, it has been consistently unreliable for me.

Thinking "OK, it's the lenses needing to be calibrated" I brought out my Spider LensCal. After going through this process which requires a tripod and steady, level mounting for both the camera and calibrator. I found that the camera simply doesn't consistently focus enough to even calibrate a lens!!!! Some shots confirming focus would say it's front focusing by as much as 4 or 5, then I would hit it again and it would be dead nuts on 0 - no adjustments. Any adjustments I made would show no difference at all, it simply was hit or miss at it's finest. (Keeping in mind these are 1.4, 1.8, and 2.8 lenses with shallow depth of field)

What was even more interesting with my testing was that Live View nails focus just fine...and I mean like a razor 85%-95% of the time, while the AF sensor is incapable of even coming close to this consistency level. I believe this camera has an issue with it's AF sensor. The lenses - one of which was recently in to CPS and is spot on - were not the problem after all.

I'll start my own thread showing testing and hopefully before/after improvements after I send it in. Safe to say, if my camera comes back functioning properly after proper calibration from CPS there are indeed problems with these cameras.

Disappointed, but confident CPS will fix it and hopefully come up with a firmware update soon...hopefully it isn't a hardware issue requiring a recall.

- Kevin


- Kevin Kevin DiOssi Photography (external link)1DX Mark II/5D Mk IV/Mk III/SL2/M5
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M-Mount: Pancake 22mm f/2| 15-45mm | EF-EOSM Adapter
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NeilB0147
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Jan 06, 2015 11:53 |  #28

I think the fact that people have been sending them back and if lucky getting a good one as a replacement was enough for me to get my money back.
I really wanted this body to work well for me but for £1600 i at least want a sharp image, noise i can handle but OOF no way.




  
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Kickflipkid687
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Jan 08, 2015 10:38 as a reply to  @ CamaroSS's post |  #29

Yeah, that is exactly what I've been seeing, with 2 copies I've had.

I just sent in my 2nd copy, and Canon is working on it now in California.
Their report just says, "Test all Functions, Get it working properly" lol.
I told them in the report that other people have reported the same problems.

I tried doing the same tests, multiple lenses, on a tripod, timer, mirror lockup, ect.

Even in LiveView, it would be dead on, I'd re-tap the Back button AF, and it would be outta focus.
Re-tap again, even more outta focus. Repeat, and it was all over the place.

I tried the same tests with my 60D, and a D750 rental, neither had any issues. My 60D was like 99.9% perfect.
Even in normal AF, not live view.


My Flickr page - https://www.flickr.com​/photos/86957042@N07/ (external link)

  
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John ­ Sheehy
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Post edited over 4 years ago by John Sheehy. (2 edits in all)
     
Jan 08, 2015 10:47 |  #30

EDIT: Sorry, I see the OP already addressed this in one of the later posts.

The 7D2 has iTR, which I don't think the 5D3 has. iTR totally changes the rules of automatic AF point selection. Have you (the OP) tried with iTR disabled?




  
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5D3 vs. 7D2 Field Test (Focus, Focus, Focus...)
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