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FORUMS News & Rumors Camera Rumors and Predictions 
Thread started 17 Dec 2014 (Wednesday) 07:34
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50 Megapixel Canon in 2015...

 
Gel
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Jan 06, 2015 13:38 |  #136

David Arbogast wrote in post #17367110 (external link)
Well, you're in luck: Phase One and Hasselblad have your mf sensor needs covered. ;)

Seriously, if Canon made an mf camera, wouldn't it require a whole new lens system? Or can they make EF lenses work with a larger sensor?

And if you need all new lenses, why not go with already-existing well-established mf ecosystems?

It would require a new lens system. But then why not rebrand the Pentax system. Silly as that might sound it has good basis in that Sony are selling their 52mp sensor to all who'll take it. New lens system, new source of revenue. New niche market for those who want the best image quality and also, who want fast AF and a decent flash system.

With the latest rumor being that the Canon high pixel sensor is 52mp is that a hard bridge to cross?


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sploo
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Jan 06, 2015 15:24 |  #137

Shadowblade wrote in post #17368412 (external link)
I just wish you could save a custom curve to the camera for in-camera JPEG conversion and to use as the setting for display on the camera's LCD. That way, you could set a curve that showed the full DR of the image, instead of the clipped default curve, and could better utilise the full DR of the camera instead of just guessing how many stops above the default curve's 'white' you actually are and, therefore, how close you are to blowing out the RAW.

I've seen claims you can use a very flat picture profile (for a Canon DSLR) and that results in more realistic feedback about the true clipping for the raw data - though I've not tried it myself, and it obviously results in a very washed out looking image on the LCD.

There's also Magic Lantern's raw histogram feature, but I'm suspecting by "the camera" you're talking about the A7R now?


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Shadowblade
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Jan 06, 2015 16:32 |  #138

sploo wrote in post #17369322 (external link)
I've seen claims you can use a very flat picture profile (for a Canon DSLR) and that results in more realistic feedback about the true clipping for the raw data - though I've not tried it myself, and it obviously results in a very washed out looking image on the LCD.

There's also Magic Lantern's raw histogram feature, but I'm suspecting by "the camera" you're talking about the A7R now?

It's not about the flatness of the profile - it's about the white point and black point of the curve as it relates to the RAW file. To see the true DR of the image, you'd want to set the white point at the RAW's saturation point and the black point at the noise floor. Anything else will either prematurely blow out the highlights or clip detail-containing shadows to black.

It would also be nice to be able to view RAW previews in-camera with a variety of conversion settings, so that you can use one setting to see the DR of the image and another to see how the image actually looks.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure whether any camera allows either of these features (custom in-camera curves or multiple curves), even if they are technically straightforward.




  
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sploo
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Jan 06, 2015 17:47 |  #139

Shadowblade wrote in post #17369404 (external link)
It's not about the flatness of the profile - it's about the white point and black point of the curve as it relates to the RAW file.

Part of the profile is a transfer curve though, AFAIU. It should be possible to have a profile that mapped the extremities of the raw range into an 8-bit JPEG (and thus be more representative of the DR); albeit resulting in a strange looking JPEG image. Whether that's actually possible with a camera profile I'm not sure. Canon do have a tool for user created profiles, so that might be worth trying.

Shadowblade wrote in post #17369404 (external link)
It would also be nice to be able to view RAW previews in-camera with a variety of conversion settings, so that you can use one setting to see the DR of the image and another to see how the image actually looks.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure whether any camera allows either of these features (custom in-camera curves or multiple curves), even if they are technically straightforward.

Agreed. The guesswork of what the camera reports as blown out vs what's actually lost is tedious. I guess it's one of those many things that would be feasible to deliver in firmware, but doesn't seem to be on manufacturer's lists (e.g. such as ETTR metering). As mentioned, Magic Lantern does some of these things, but isn't much use if you're shooting a Sony or Nikon.

The idea of a raw preview would be good. Given that the raw is being decoded to produce a JPEG the data would be available, so it shouldn't be that hard to give an option to display histograms based on the raw data instead of the JPEG. It's not even like it's an unusual thing to want; getting histogram data from the JPEG when you're shooting raw is arguably misleading.


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Shadowblade
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Jan 06, 2015 18:48 |  #140

sploo wrote in post #17369509 (external link)
Part of the profile is a transfer curve though, AFAIU. It should be possible to have a profile that mapped the extremities of the raw range into an 8-bit JPEG (and thus be more representative of the DR); albeit resulting in a strange looking JPEG image. Whether that's actually possible with a camera profile I'm not sure. Canon do have a tool for user created profiles, so that might be worth trying.

Agreed. The guesswork of what the camera reports as blown out vs what's actually lost is tedious. I guess it's one of those many things that would be feasible to deliver in firmware, but doesn't seem to be on manufacturer's lists (e.g. such as ETTR metering). As mentioned, Magic Lantern does some of these things, but isn't much use if you're shooting a Sony or Nikon.

The idea of a raw preview would be good. Given that the raw is being decoded to produce a JPEG the data would be available, so it shouldn't be that hard to give an option to display histograms based on the raw data instead of the JPEG. It's not even like it's an unusual thing to want; getting histogram data from the JPEG when you're shooting raw is arguably misleading.

A tone-mapping curve is part of the profile. But, for the purposes of assessing DR, it's immaterial whether the curve is flat or S-shaped - all that matters is that the start and end points of the curve correspond with the darkest shadows that still contain detail and the brightest non-clipped highlights. It'd give a technical rather than aesthetic image, though, with strange-looking landscapes and downright awful-looking low-contrast scenes. Bit it wouldn't affect the underlying RAW and would give very useful technical information. I don't know if you can save such a custom profile to the camera, though.




  
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sploo
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Jan 07, 2015 18:33 |  #141

Shadowblade wrote in post #17369633 (external link)
A tone-mapping curve is part of the profile. But, for the purposes of assessing DR, it's immaterial whether the curve is flat or S-shaped - all that matters is that the start and end points of the curve correspond with the darkest shadows that still contain detail and the brightest non-clipped highlights.

It's a long time since I've played with Canon's Picture Style editor, but having taken a quick look at a video tutorial it actually looks fairly powerful, and does have a curves/LUT/profile that you can manipulate. However, as you say, what matters is how the actual start and end points are interpreted. The fact that the tutorial appeared to show some of the standard profiles using the "full" curve in the tool would perhaps indicate that they'd result in clipping in the JPEG, sadly.

Shadowblade wrote in post #17369633 (external link)
It'd give a technical rather than aesthetic image, though, with strange-looking landscapes and downright awful-looking low-contrast scenes. Bit it wouldn't affect the underlying RAW and would give very useful technical information. I don't know if you can save such a custom profile to the camera, though.

I'm not a video guy, but when I was using the editor (and uploading profiles) it was for trying out low contrast profiles designed for video; whereby the ungraded output looked pretty dull, so that would result in some drab JPEG images if used.


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Shadowblade
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Jan 08, 2015 21:34 |  #142

sploo wrote in post #17371376 (external link)
It's a long time since I've played with Canon's Picture Style editor, but having taken a quick look at a video tutorial it actually looks fairly powerful, and does have a curves/LUT/profile that you can manipulate. However, as you say, what matters is how the actual start and end points are interpreted. The fact that the tutorial appeared to show some of the standard profiles using the "full" curve in the tool would perhaps indicate that they'd result in clipping in the JPEG, sadly.

Just as I mentioned it, Nikon is about to release firmware for RAW histograms in their cameras:

http://nikonrumors.com …10-and-d600-cameras.aspx/ (external link)




  
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Jan 08, 2015 21:54 |  #143

Shadowblade wrote in post #17373252 (external link)
Just as I mentioned it, Nikon is about to release firmware for RAW histograms in their cameras:

http://nikonrumors.com …10-and-d600-cameras.aspx/ (external link)

I'll be happy if it just shows the RBG histogram in live view on the D810.


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Jan 08, 2015 23:22 as a reply to  @ Bcaps's post |  #144

LOl, you are easy to please, and I agree.




  
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Shadowblade
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Jan 09, 2015 06:55 |  #145

Bcaps wrote in post #17373273 (external link)
I'll be happy if it just shows the RBG histogram in live view on the D810.

The non-RAW histogram is actually pretty useless. If it's not blown out on the default JPEG, you've thrown out at least the brightest stop the camera can capture, if not more.

Or, to put it another way, you're throwing out at least 8192 of the 16384 (50%) of the luminance levels the camera is capable of capturing.




  
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John ­ Sheehy
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Jan 09, 2015 09:56 |  #146

Shadowblade wrote in post #17373579 (external link)
The non-RAW histogram is actually pretty useless. If it's not blown out on the default JPEG, you've thrown out at least the brightest stop the camera can capture, if not more.

Or, to put it another way, you're throwing out at least 8192 of the 16384 (50%) of the luminance levels the camera is capable of capturing.

Well, that sounds a lot worse than it is. Those levels in the top stop are overkill. You could quantize that stop to 300 levels in most cameras, and there would be no visible difference in the image. Only something with a very high full-well-capacity like an A7s or a low-MP medium format sensor would need more than 300 levels, and not a whole lot more. If a camera needs only 300 levels for the top stop, it needs 212 levels for the second stop, 150 for the third, 106 for the 4th, etc, until you get down to where read noise dominates, and then you need at a minimum enough levels so that the standard deviation of the read noise is at least 1.3 RAW levels, "DN", or "ADU". 16,384 levels are overkill for any current camera. They are, however, necessary or almost necessary in a camera with linear digitization, because the levels-resolution is needed only at the bottom end, near black. No Canon is worthy of more than 12 linear bits; 12 bits would be exactly right for Canons, but they use 14, which does have the benefit that if the camera does arithmetic manipulation of the original digitization (something that Canon does to the RAW values but doesn't have to), they survive better without posterization. A good example is the 1/3-stop ISOs; crushing/expanding the histograms would result in posterization of shadow areas with just 12 bits. I'm sure Canon does some arithmetic banding correction in firmware, and the extra bits allow corrections at a finer increments. Of course, this could all be done in software if Canon used a pure 12-bit digitization for the RAW file, with no arithmetic "tweaks".

The most important thing about using that top stop being used is that the lowest stop is now a stop higher, meaning a half stop less read noise for it, and a stop less read noise. In the top stop, read noise is not significant, and a half stop less shot noise is not significant at low ISOs in the highlights, and may actually not even increase SNR much at all, because PRNU (fixed scalar noise) noise may limit the maximum SNR. I remember graphing the SNR on my XTi years ago, and it flat-lined at about 100:1 for the top two stops of ISO 100, and the top stop of ISO 200.




  
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Jan 10, 2015 04:12 |  #147

John Sheehy wrote in post #17373826 (external link)
Well, that sounds a lot worse than it is. Those levels in the top stop are overkill. You could quantize that stop to 300 levels in most cameras, and there would be no visible difference in the image. Only something with a very high full-well-capacity like an A7s or a low-MP medium format sensor would need more than 300 levels, and not a whole lot more. If a camera needs only 300 levels for the top stop, it needs 212 levels for the second stop, 150 for the third, 106 for the 4th, etc, until you get down to where read noise dominates, and then you need at a minimum enough levels so that the standard deviation of the read noise is at least 1.3 RAW levels, "DN", or "ADU". 16,384 levels are overkill for any current camera. They are, however, necessary or almost necessary in a camera with linear digitization, because the levels-resolution is needed only at the bottom end, near black. No Canon is worthy of more than 12 linear bits; 12 bits would be exactly right for Canons, but they use 14, which does have the benefit that if the camera does arithmetic manipulation of the original digitization (something that Canon does to the RAW values but doesn't have to), they survive better without posterization. A good example is the 1/3-stop ISOs; crushing/expanding the histograms would result in posterization of shadow areas with just 12 bits. I'm sure Canon does some arithmetic banding correction in firmware, and the extra bits allow corrections at a finer increments. Of course, this could all be done in software if Canon used a pure 12-bit digitization for the RAW file, with no arithmetic "tweaks".

The most important thing about using that top stop being used is that the lowest stop is now a stop higher, meaning a half stop less read noise for it, and a stop less read noise. In the top stop, read noise is not significant, and a half stop less shot noise is not significant at low ISOs in the highlights, and may actually not even increase SNR much at all, because PRNU (fixed scalar noise) noise may limit the maximum SNR. I remember graphing the SNR on my XTi years ago, and it flat-lined at about 100:1 for the top two stops of ISO 100, and the top stop of ISO 200.

No visible difference in the captured image.

But it gives you a lot more latitude for working with curves, etc. in Photoshop afterwards.




  
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John ­ Sheehy
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Jan 10, 2015 14:23 |  #148

Shadowblade wrote in post #17375129 (external link)
No visible difference in the captured image.

But it gives you a lot more latitude for working with curves, etc. in Photoshop afterwards.

The number of levels I am talking about in the RAW is enough for any amount of post-processing. I put it to the test years ago. If the noise level is 1.3 ADU or more at every tonal level in the RAW, it will survive any amount of processing as well as a 14- or 16-bit original. What you may be overlooking is the fact there is no such thing as smooth tones in a RAW; even the brightest highlights of a large-pixel medium format camera are heavily dithered by noise. You only get smooth tones when a converter interpolates and smooths the RAW data. When a converter starts working on the data, that is when you need more levels; the RAW itself is highly dithered and benefits from precision only to a limited extent.




  
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Jan 10, 2015 14:55 |  #149

ADU? I haven't found anything sounding like a measurement unit, looking online...


ADU Application Data Unit
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John ­ Sheehy
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Jan 10, 2015 15:05 |  #150

Wilt wrote in post #17375841 (external link)
ADU? I haven't found anything sounding like a measurement unit, looking online...

Analog to Digital Unit of measurement.




  
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