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Thread started 25 Dec 2014 (Thursday) 10:15
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DSLR soon obsolete

 
smythie
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Jan 28, 2015 01:43 |  #211

Interesting article but as it focusses on digital video bodies, the author has neglected to look at the EVF's in some of the still cameras out there. E.g in the case of the Sony A7/r/s/II bodies, their OLED EVF's offer well over 2mp though I'm not sure they're wide enough to show full HD but a great deal better resolution than some of those the author seems to tout as the top end of the market.


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Shadowblade
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Jan 28, 2015 02:14 |  #212

DC Fan wrote in post #17403689 (external link)
Red Shark has posted an interesting technical analysis (external link) of the shortcomings of the current generation of electronic viewfinders. In short, they appear to be nowhere near matching the capabilities of optical reflex viewfinders anytime.

An EVF doesn't need to show all 36MP or whatever at the same time. You can't see 36MP worth of detail with the naked eye through an OVF either - tiny details often only become apparent later when viewing at 100% in Photoshop. The basic, whole-image EVF view is used for composition and exposure, not critical focus. In this view, focus peaking tells you where the plane of focus is - which is a lot more accurate than what you can discern with the naked eye through an OVF. For critical focus, you zoom in (which, again, you can't do with an OVF).

Don't believe me? Try accurately adjusting tilt on a tilt-shift lens through an OVF. Then do the same thing through an EVF - even without zooming in, the EVF's focus peaking makes it a lot more accurate than doing it blind using an OVF.




  
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watt100
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Jan 28, 2015 05:37 |  #213

GregDunn wrote in post #17350223 (external link)
Mirrorless will not be competitive until the manufacturers can solve the glacially slow autofocus problems and provide a viewfinder which rivals live view. Meanwhile, those of us who shoot sports will only be mildly curious about them.

I shoot a lot of sports, if the mirrorless models have the same AF and FPS and a reasonable viewfinder as a DSLR then I would switch




  
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Jan 28, 2015 14:47 |  #214

DC Fan wrote in post #17403689 (external link)
Red Shark has posted an interesting technical analysis (external link) of the shortcomings of the current generation of electronic viewfinders. In short, they appear to be nowhere near matching the capabilities of optical reflex viewfinders anytime.

The 'shortcoming' according to the article is the inability to display a full 4k image via the viewfinder of video cameras. Their main issue with this, accordingly to the article, is that it affects the shooter's ability to see whether or not a shot is in focus. The simple solution to that already exists: focus peaking, which allows you to find critical focus better than you ever could with your naked eye through an optical viewfinder.

Also, I don't see the need for a full resolution image via the viewfinder anyway. Higher resolutions are necessary when viewing images on large displays from a far viewing distance. With an EVF, you're taking a tiny OLED screen and holding it within an inch of your eye.


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Jan 28, 2015 16:08 as a reply to  @ mystik610's post |  #215

I think one major thing that hasn't been discussed is how advanced technology is and why things aren't obsolete. Things are so advanced that for all practical purposes they are "effective" for a very long time. It is only for impractical purposes that things become obsolete.

For example, I still shoot a 5Dc. By all measures it is a crappy camera by todays standards. However, I still love images that come out of it. In most respects I get the same images that I could get from any recent camera. Only when I want to special things does it fall short. (i.e. super large prints).

So for me obsolescence of my 5Dc DSLR will not occur basically until images are no longer displayed on screen or the medium becomes incompatible with my camera.

Contrast that with something like the cell phone vs. home phone. Now THAT made landlines nearly obsolete. It offered me the same thing, but I could take it anywhere.

Trivial changes in sensors size, dynamic range, viewfinders and product size that can only be seen by those doing highly specialized work do not make things obsolete.


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smythie
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Jan 28, 2015 16:22 |  #216

mystik610 wrote in post #17404427 (external link)
The 'shortcoming' according to the article is the inability to display a full 4k image via the viewfinder of video cameras. Their main issue with this, accordingly to the article, is that it affects the shooter's ability to see whether or not a shot is in focus. The simple solution to that already exists: focus peaking, which allows you to find critical focus better than you ever could with your naked eye through an optical viewfinder.

Also, I don't see the need for a full resolution image via the viewfinder anyway. Higher resolutions are necessary when viewing images on large displays from a far viewing distance. With an EVF, you're taking a tiny OLED screen and holding it within an inch of your eye.

Focus peaking is not all that easy to use in finding critical focus on a subject. If you want critical focus you still need to magnify the viewfinder.


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watt100
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Jan 28, 2015 18:02 |  #217

benji25 wrote in post #17404551 (external link)
For example, I still shoot a 5Dc. By all measures it is a crappy camera by todays standards. However, I still love images that come out of it. In most respects I get the same images that I could get from any recent camera. Only when I want to special things does it fall short. (i.e. super large prints).
.

yes, the old models still produce excellent images but the Marketing Dept. has to do something




  
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The ­ Dark ­ Knight
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Jan 28, 2015 18:20 |  #218

benji25 wrote in post #17404551 (external link)
I think one major thing that hasn't been discussed is how advanced technology is and why things aren't obsolete. Things are so advanced that for all practical purposes they are "effective" for a very long time. It is only for impractical purposes that things become obsolete.

For example, I still shoot a 5Dc. By all measures it is a crappy camera by todays standards. However, I still love images that come out of it. In most respects I get the same images that I could get from any recent camera. Only when I want to special things does it fall short. (i.e. super large prints).

So for me obsolescence of my 5Dc DSLR will not occur basically until images are no longer displayed on screen or the medium becomes incompatible with my camera.

Contrast that with something like the cell phone vs. home phone. Now THAT made landlines nearly obsolete. It offered me the same thing, but I could take it anywhere.

Trivial changes in sensors size, dynamic range, viewfinders and product size that can only be seen by those doing highly specialized work do not make things obsolete.

I'll be honest, despite the temptation of all the new mirrorless models, I'm rediscovering my love for the DSLR. I've been using my 6D more often, with a small prime it's not too heavy to carry around.




  
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smythie
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Jan 28, 2015 18:27 |  #219

Similar here. My A7r has hardly been used in the past few months whereas my D4 has become my walkaround body. Two main reasons: more comfortable grip (to hold, carry and shoot with); and AF


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sandpiper
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Jan 28, 2015 18:55 |  #220

Shadowblade wrote in post #17397399 (external link)
For these applications, EVFs and their processors currently used in mirrorless stills cameras are not sufficient. EVFs capable of handling fast action exist, and have been used for a while in video cameras for shooting sports.

gjl711 wrote in post #17397584 (external link)
This has to be an implementation issue, not a technical one. Even my cell phone can track objects when in video mode with no noticeable lag on the lcd what so ever. Every consumer video camera does the same so clearly reading the sensor data and translating that into a picture without lag is possible today. Why there is lag in a mirrorless is puzzling.

I don't think that you can use video as an argument against the lag problem when shooting stills. They are totally different scenarios and the lag is still there with video, it just doesn't matter.

The issue with EVF lag in still shooting is that you are taking a single shot, where you want to capture the perfect moment such as the baseball bat hitting the ball, or the soccer tackle just as the foot hits the opponents ankle. With shots like these you need to be able to trip the shutter at precisely the right moment, and you can't do that properly when what you are seeing is delayed by even a very small amount. Lag is an issue when trying to capture a precise moment. With video, there is no attempt to catch a precise moment, you shoot the pitch, the swing, the hit and the balls flight to the catcher all as a sequence. There may be no frame where the ball is actually contacting the bat, it doesn't matter because our brains fill in the gaps when watching a sequence of still frames presented as a movie, that is why we see "normal motion" during playback. Hang one single frame on the wall though and it needs to be precise.

Of course you don't see the lag in a video shot, you would only see it at the start of the scene being filmed, and nobody tries to start shooting a video of something happening by catching the point of peak action when they first press the shutter button, they want to capture the whole action so start shooting as it is about to start.

I have no intention of replacing my DSLRs for action work, I might by an A7r for landscape and architectural work, they don't tend to move too fast, but I have not seen any sign that EVF technology can handle the action work for STILL photography. If the day comes when a mirrorless can match the performance of a DSLR, then I wouldn't have an issue buying one, but it would have to be AS GOOD AS in every department, being close just doesn't cut it. I want to,be able to look through the viewfinder and see a view that is as clear as an optical VF and know that what I am looking at is what is happening this instant, not a fraction of a second earlier and things have moved on in the real world. I tried photographing drag racing with an EVF and it was an exercise in futility, the cars were well ahead of where I was seeing them, I had to adopt the shooting technique of duck hunters and fire ahead of the the subject as I saw it, so that it would be in the right place as I took the shot. I got really fed up with pics of the back end of race cars disappearing out of frame. To be fair, that was some time ago and I am sure they have improved since, but whilst less lag is good I don't want ANY lag.




  
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Shadowblade
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Jan 28, 2015 18:56 |  #221

smythie wrote in post #17404582 (external link)
Focus peaking is not all that easy to use in finding critical focus on a subject. If you want critical focus you still need to magnify the viewfinder.

And if you want to find critical focus through an OVF, you can't. You need to switch to live view and look at the LCD on the back.

With an OVF, you need to place an AF point on the target and just hope it focuses accurately.

Doubly so if it's dark.




  
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Jan 28, 2015 19:04 |  #222

Shadowblade wrote in post #17404787 (external link)
And if you want to find critical focus through an OVF, you can't. You need to switch to live view and look at the LCD on the back.

With an OVF, you need to place an AF point on the target and just hope it focuses accurately.

Doubly so if it's dark.

Swap out the standard screen for the Ex-S screen, and improved focus precision is put into the dSLR


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Jan 28, 2015 19:12 as a reply to  @ sandpiper's post |  #223

evf delay is very small : https://www.youtube.co​m/watch?v=lZqV7TTwtlU (external link), dont think it would make or break anything TBH. there's probably more lag with the shutter than actual evf lag. A7 shutter is 60ms, while A7r is 120ms. I'm sure these can be solved digitally.


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Charlie
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Jan 28, 2015 19:14 as a reply to  @ Wilt's post |  #224

precision screen doesnt come close to an EVF IMO. By nature, mirrorless acts as a precision screen.... the focus peaking is what puts it on another league.


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smythie
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Jan 28, 2015 19:58 |  #225

My experience is that it is NOT another league. Only to the level that a precision screen in an OVF offers. It is the EVF magnification that puts the EVF in another league for manual focus


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