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FORUMS Canon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon EOS Digital Cameras 
Thread started 31 Jan 2015 (Saturday) 15:04
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EOS 5Ds

 
stripi
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Jan 31, 2015 15:04 |  #1

http://www.canonwatch.​com …5ds-r-leaked-50mp-sensor/ (external link)




  
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stripi
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Post edited over 4 years ago by stripi.
     
Jan 31, 2015 15:10 |  #2

Just noticed that identical thread already exists.

@admin: could you please delete thread :9

sorry folks :)




  
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Submariner
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Feb 02, 2015 08:03 |  #3

I wonder if this is true, seems like a lot of ( albeit well overdue ) activity.
Better get saving .... Especially if they actually have done a deal with Sony, even if it is only to sub-license Sony's sensor techology.

If it looks like there will be a choice of AA filter or no AA filter. Guess I will have to read up on the pros and cons.
My very basic understaning is the AA filter is great to stop moire especially in video. (But it looks like video won't be a special feature in the 5Ds range - maybe reserved for the 5DIV).
But it creates noise.

Has anyone got any great links to explain the full implications of not having an AA Filter.
My gut feel is for studio and Location portraits moire is not a big factor but noise definitely is ( well for me).

I do hope we get a decent AF system as least as good as the current 5D3. I.e. This isnt just a glorified Canon version of the sony A7R. :(

Looks like we will be spoilt for choice.

I think I Would like to see all variants and what they offer before upgrading.


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BigAl007
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Feb 03, 2015 08:44 |  #4

Submariner wrote in post #17411516 (external link)
If it looks like there will be a choice of AA filter or no AA filter. Guess I will have to read up on the pros and cons.
My very basic understaning is the AA filter is great to stop moire especially in video. (But it looks like video won't be a special feature in the 5Ds range - maybe reserved for the 5DIV).
But it creates noise.

Has anyone got any great links to explain the full implications of not having an AA Filter.
My gut feel is for studio and Location portraits moire is not a big factor but noise definitely is ( well for me).

The AA filter doesn't introduce any noise at all. What does do is reduce the resolution of the image from the lens slightly. This is to ensure that the lens resolution cannot exceed the Nyquist cutoff frequency. If the signal passed to the sensor exceeds the Nyquist limit then you do get a pattern noise added to the image data. There is no means of filtering out the aliasing noise automatically. Attempts to manually remove the noise will also remove wanted signal at the same frequency. Actually passing signals up to the Nyquist frequency itself is not really a good idea. At and close to Nyquist variations in the phase alignment of the signal and sensor can result in large errors in recorded signal amplitude. The recorded signal can be anywhere between zero and the full amplitude for signals at Nyquist. For signals close to the Nyquist frequency will suffer from the same, but the levels will also drift as the phase relationship slowly varies. Since the AA filter can be tuned to allow an adequate amount of oversampling of the signal to occur it also helps to prevent these errors, which would be really difficult to deal with.

Personally I would not want to use one of these sensors for general photography without the AA filter. The resolution as reported for the new camera is actually just a fraction lower than the sensor in the 7DII/70D cameras, which at FF size would be 56 Mpix. Most of the current crop of Canon lenses can easily out resolve those sensors, which have a Nyquist cutoff frequency of just over 120 LP/mm.

Most of the high Mpix count MF systems are able to do away with the AA filter as MF systems have traditionally used lenses that have much lower resolution limits than those found on 35mm film or digital bodies. Because of this they are much less likely to hit the Nyquist limit.

Alan


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TeamSpeed
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Post edited over 4 years ago by TeamSpeed.
     
Feb 03, 2015 09:14 |  #5

Nikon has a patent that looks like they want to give the user control over the effects of a low pass filter. You can decide when you want the low pass filter to eliminate moire from what you are shooting, or you can basically make it "disappear", or have no real impact on the projected image to the sensor. That would be the best of both worlds, IMO.


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MalVeauX
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Feb 03, 2015 10:05 |  #6

Hrm,

I'm less interested in a 50MP sensor with no AA filter.

I'm more interested in a less pixel dense sensor with better high ISO and no AA filter, around 15~20MP. Just enough for relatively large print, but nothing huge. I personally don't need 50MP files and I'm not printing poster size.

Very best,


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Qlayer2
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Feb 03, 2015 10:11 |  #7

TeamSpeed wrote in post #17413334 (external link)
Nikon has a patent that looks like they want to give the user control over the effects of a low pass filter. You can decide when you want the low pass filter to eliminate moire from what you are shooting, or you can basically make it "disappear", or have no real impact on the projected image to the sensor. That would be the best of both worlds, IMO.


Pentax does something similar with the K-3- they use sensor vibration to mimic the effect of the AA filter as a user selectable option.




  
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Submariner
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Post edited over 4 years ago by Submariner.
     
Feb 03, 2015 18:01 |  #8

Thanks for all the detailed responses, very much appreciated,
But wow Honestly I am feeling very stupid; as the technological arguments are so above my head, that I need to do quite a lot of reading before I would be able to decide whether to buy the variant, with or without the AA filter.
On balance it sounds like I would want/need an AA filter.

However the Nikon patent does seem like the solution.


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Feb 03, 2015 19:11 |  #9

MalVeauX wrote in post #17413405 (external link)
Hrm,

I'm less interested in a 50MP sensor with no AA filter.

I'm more interested in a less pixel dense sensor with better high ISO and no AA filter, around 15~20MP. Just enough for relatively large print, but nothing huge. I personally don't need 50MP files and I'm not printing poster size.

Very best,

I guess you must be planning on using some really old glass on this camera. The Nyquist cutoff frequency for that specification sensor, assuming you are looking for a FF sized one, to reduce the resolution as you would want, is only 70 LP/mm. Oh and that 70 LP/mm is only for monochromatic images, the Bayer CFA reduces the Nyquist limit significantly for colour images. Throw in the phase errors that you see at or near the Nyquist limit and you could be down to needing to find lenses with resolution limits below 50 LP/mm. It is also important to realise that the frequency of the aliasing is equal to the difference between the Nyquist frequency and the actual frequency of the signal.

So if we have a sensor with a cutoff of 130 LP/mm (seems to be about what the new sensor is likely to give) and a lens that can transmit a 140 LP/mm signal to the sensor, then you will see aliasing signals at frequencies up to 10 LP/mm. For the asked for sensor with a cut off frequency of 70 LP/mm and the same 140 LP/mm lens you will see aliasing frequencies up to 70 LP/mm. If you are in a position where you have signals that are more than double the sampling frequency then you move in to second order aliasing. No sensible engineer would actually consider trying to design a system that poor.

Alan


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