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FORUMS Canon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon EOS Digital Cameras 
Thread started 06 Feb 2015 (Friday) 00:26
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New 5D series as a competition to MF?

 
light_pilgrim
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Feb 06, 2015 00:26 |  #1

I think I was the most excited fellow of all when I saw rumors about the new camera from Canon that is designed for landscape and portrait photographers. These are the only 2 areas I am interested, so I was sure I am going to get the new 5Ds.

My main question was a dynamic range.

Now that I see the actual announcement, I am somewhat disappointed.

- canon says it is the same DR as MKIII, which I currently own

- it is identical body, same AF

The only improvement is the resolution, not the DR or ISO.

In my opinion, if you are a landscape hotographer and you do not print billboards, there is not much to look forward to. I would need to invest into a new PC too.

Looks like it is a competition with MF rather than nikon D810. I would prefer a camera that has a similar resolution and a better DR.

Maybe 5D MKIV? At least I will not spend any money now:-)


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GeoKras1989
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Feb 06, 2015 10:28 |  #2
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It would be kind of difficult to improve the DR when the camera has the pixel pitch of apsc. Roughly the same as the 70D/7D2. Which is also why it is limited ISO 6400. Tiny little light buckets on a full frame camera. What a great idea.

If the idea is for crop-ability, it is still cheaper to shoot a 400mm lens on a 7D2, than a 600 on the 5Ds. Only now you get the same pixel density. They have effectively eliminated the APSC pixel-density advantage in long range shooting. All you need is $4,000 of the camera and $10,000 for the lens. To yield about the same IQ you can get from an $1800 camera and a $1300 lens.


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BigAl007
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Feb 06, 2015 10:52 |  #3

Yes but as this seems to be designed as a studio/landscape camera, very high ISO values are not really a top priority are they. I would expect that mostly they are going to be used at ISO 100 or 200 at the most. Also where you don't need 8688 pixels for output you have the option pixel binning to compensate for the smaller photosites. A full simple 2×2 binning will still give you a 12 Mpix image.

The one slightly disappointing thing is the in built crop option. The 1.3 and 1.6 crop options seem like a really good idea, except they do not actually crop the data from the sensor. The RAW file is still the full 60 MB. So no advantage on number of images recorded on the card, or the buffer size. You might as well just shoot at full size anyway, and crop in post.

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Shadowblade
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Feb 06, 2015 10:57 |  #4

light_pilgrim wrote in post #17417768 (external link)
I think I was the most excited fellow of all when I saw rumors about the new camera from Canon that is designed for landscape and portrait photographers. These are the only 2 areas I am interested, so I was sure I am going to get the new 5Ds.

My main question was a dynamic range.

Now that I see the actual announcement, I am somewhat disappointed.

- canon says it is the same DR as MKIII, which I currently own

- it is identical body, same AF

The only improvement is the resolution, not the DR or ISO.

In my opinion, if you are a landscape hotographer and you do not print billboards, there is not much to look forward to. I would need to invest into a new PC too.

Looks like it is a competition with MF rather than nikon D810. I would prefer a camera that has a similar resolution and a better DR.

Maybe 5D MKIV? At least I will not spend any money now:-)

MF also has great DR - much better than Canon's. If you want to compete with MF, you need the dynamic range as well as the resolution. Better colour definition also helps, even at the cost of ultra-high ISOs, since that is another of medium format's strengths.




  
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GeoKras1989
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Feb 06, 2015 11:02 |  #5
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Shadowblade wrote in post #17418444 (external link)
MF also has great DR - much better than Canon's. If you want to compete with MF, you need the dynamic range as well as the resolution. Better colour definition also helps, even at the cost of ultra-high ISOs, since that is another of medium format's strengths.

True. MF advantages in DR and resolution come from the really large sensor, which has really large light buckets. The 5Ds/5DsR are a step in the opposite direction, using smaller light buckets than regular full frame. I have no idea what one would do with this camera. I do know that competing with MF is not on the list.


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fogboundturtle
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Feb 06, 2015 11:02 |  #6

I don't think the 5Ds or 5Dr will be anywhere close to the Pentax 645Z quality anytime soon. In the same way a crop sensor doesn't compete with a FF sensor, a FF sensor does not compete against a MF sensor.


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Submariner
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Feb 06, 2015 16:56 |  #7

Who would have preferred that they had launched with an all new 38 MPS sensor, with similar low light and ISO performance of a 6D or 5D3 and much better DR than the Nikon D810.
And binned the AA Filter and the cancelling filter , and just come out with one camera with no AA ( low pass ) filter.
And had continuous AF in video mode.
And not lost 100grams in build quality ( after all they say at high MPS stability is essential to maximise the detail)
Any takers or Am I misguided ?


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Feb 06, 2015 17:16 as a reply to  @ Submariner's post |  #8

I have to say misguided. Especially about the AA filter. Most of the really good current glass out resolves the sensor by a significant margin. The 5DS at 50 Mpix has a resolution limit of only 120 LP/mm, most of the MKII l's seem capable of resolutions up above 130 LP/mm. One you have the artifacts you cannot simply filter them out without also losing low frequency detail. Better not be photographing any really fine materials like silk.

I guess part of Canon's problems with improving DR in the way that everyone wants are patents. Its a shame that you cannot simply do what the competition has done, but they invented it so they get to exploit it.

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Mornnb
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Feb 06, 2015 17:48 as a reply to  @ GeoKras1989's post |  #9

Dynamic range has little to do with pixel size, as you can see from Sony's sensors on Nikon cameras, where the crop cameras have dynamic range nearly as high as the D800.

The trick is Sony has patents for on-sensor analog to digital conversation. Canon is doing this off sensor in the Digic chip, and the analog circuits between the sensor and Digic chip picks up more noise. Which shows up in the photo as low ISO noise in shadows. At high ISO, pixel level noise is the main factor at play.


If you're after dynamic range just pick up a Sony A7r with the metabones adapter for Canon lenses, Canon glass plus Sony sensor is a match made in heaven.


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Charlie
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Feb 06, 2015 17:50 |  #10

BigAl007 wrote in post #17418433 (external link)
Yes but as this seems to be designed as a studio/landscape camera, very high ISO values are not really a top priority are they. I would expect that mostly they are going to be used at ISO 100 or 200 at the most. Also where you don't need 8688 pixels for output you have the option pixel binning to compensate for the smaller photosites. A full simple 2×2 binning will still give you a 12 Mpix image.

The one slightly disappointing thing is the in built crop option. The 1.3 and 1.6 crop options seem like a really good idea, except they do not actually crop the data from the sensor. The RAW file is still the full 60 MB. So no advantage on number of images recorded on the card, or the buffer size. You might as well just shoot at full size anyway, and crop in post.

Alan

I saw a video from canon that says the opposite, pretty sure it was from the canon learning videos. framerate is the same at 5fps, however buffer is increased when shooting those modes.


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BigAl007
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Feb 06, 2015 18:04 |  #11

Charlie wrote in post #17419151 (external link)
I saw a video from canon that says the opposite, pretty sure it was from the canon learning videos. framerate is the same at 5fps, however buffer is increased when shooting those modes.


I was basing it on the specs list as posted on Canon USA. File size and Buffer size in RAW stay the same for 1.3, 1.6 and 1:1 crops. I wouldn't be interested in shooting JPEG, which I think does change.

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Shadowblade
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Feb 06, 2015 20:17 |  #12

Submariner wrote in post #17419057 (external link)
Who would have preferred that they had launched with an all new 38 MPS sensor, with similar low light and ISO performance of a 6D or 5D3 and much better DR than the Nikon D810.
And binned the AA Filter and the cancelling filter , and just come out with one camera with no AA ( low pass ) filter.
And had continuous AF in video mode.
And not lost 100grams in build quality ( after all they say at high MPS stability is essential to maximise the detail)
Any takers or Am I misguided ?

No, because the next generation of Nikon/Sony will be 50MP with Exmor-level DR.

Canon needed to match it on both levels.

If you don't want or need the resolution, this isn't the camera for you. Plenty of people seem to be disappointed in the lack of high ISO, the ultra-high resolution and the lack of video features. That's why the 5D3 exists and will be followed up by another camera along the same lines. This new camera is an update of the 1Ds3 or 5D2, not the replacement for the 5D3.




  
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Feb 07, 2015 15:28 |  #13

I think i can sleep happily for more few years until Canon or Nikon or Sony can bring a camera that can come closer to my H4D-60 resolution or DR, luckily there is someone rented my Hassy 3 times and i get paid, so i can be sure that this medium format will stay on top of resolution for decades until those 35mm DSLRs can bring something can surpass our MF 6x4.5 sensor.


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Mornnb
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Feb 07, 2015 16:53 |  #14

I'm going to stick with my Sony A7r as it has high resolution and higher dynamic range. A medium format that fits in your pocket. ;)
It's also small which can come useful in some other situations such as street photography.


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