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FORUMS Canon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon EOS Digital Cameras 
Thread started 05 Feb 2015 (Thursday) 07:12
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OFFICIAL : 5DS and 5DS R Announced

 
dolina
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Feb 06, 2015 22:56 |  #226

The 51MP 5DS ($3,699) & 5DS R ($3,899) are high end studio and landscape cameras. Think medium format applications where large or finely detailed prints are required.

These cameras do not replace the 5D Mark III per Canon USA video.

[VIDEO=youtube;Hl6AKRa​dEsw]http://www.youtube.com …?v=Hl6AKRadEsw#​ws[/VIDEO] (external link)

These cameras are positioned against the high megapixel full frame bodies like the 36MP Nikon D810 ($2,997) & 36MP Sony A7R ($2,098).

Canon USA mentioned medium format uses for the 5DS & 5DS R so here are the entry level medium format bodies by year.

2010 $4,500 40MP Pentax 645D
2014 $8,497 51.4MP Pentax 645Z

Now, why the drastic price difference? This all goes down to sensor size as shown below.

The Sony, Nikon and Canon uses a full frame sensor with a dimension of 36x24mm while the Pentax and other higher end medium format cameras tend to use a sensor with a dimension of 44x33mm or larger.

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6X6 medium format film is included for comparison.

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Shadowblade
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Feb 06, 2015 23:01 |  #227

FTb wrote in post #17419512 (external link)
I think the question which should be asked is "how many times have you had a shot ruined by blown highlights or detail-less shadow areas because of insufficient dynamic range."

Lots with the 5D2 (and, before that, with film). Anything with movement (including fluttering leaves) and an uneven horizon or bulbous lens was very difficult, if not completely impossible, since movement precluded multiple exposures, an uneven horizon or bulbous lens precluded GNDs and deep shadows from a single exposure would invariably be blotchy and detail-free, if not entirely clipped to black in RAW.

Very few times with the A7r. The extra 2 stops of DR make a huge difference - it's like having a 2-stop GND which can be selectively applied anywhere in the photo you want it.




  
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Xyclopx
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Feb 06, 2015 23:21 |  #228

FTb wrote in post #17419512 (external link)
I think the question which should be asked is "how many times have you had a shot ruined by blown highlights or detail-less shadow areas because of insufficient dynamic range."

actually, all the time. though I wouldn't say "ruined." but enough to go from amazing --> pretty good.

btw, i'm not one of those people always whining about canon's DR. just answering your question.


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FTb
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Feb 07, 2015 01:52 |  #229

Xyclopx wrote in post #17419599 (external link)
actually, all the time. though I wouldn't say "ruined." but enough to go from amazing --> pretty good.

btw, i'm not one of those people always whining about canon's DR. just answering your question.



I'm sure some people just like whining and some may actually not want Canon to succeed.

OTOH I'm pulling for Canon and really want them to prosper. I prefer my 6D and Canon lenses for shooting portraits to any other system and it would be a major PIA to change systems.

I just think it's best to make it absolutely clear to Canon what at least some of their loyal customers are thinking. I'd bet a big percentage of Sony's market is made up of Canon expatriots that jumped ship because they felt their needs were not being addressed. I don't want to be one of them.


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Feb 07, 2015 02:23 |  #230

If you shoot architecture or landscapes you're running into sensor DR limitations all the time. So yes of course you have had shots ruined by blown highlights or shadow noise.... This is why people talk so much about dynamic range. It actually matters for getting the shot.


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lsquare
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Feb 07, 2015 03:38 |  #231

Are there any in-depth previews available? So far all of the previews that I read doesn't get into details about features like live view. I'm really keen to know whether Canon have improved live view or not for the 5DS. Since there's no dual pixel AF for the 5DS, I'm expecting AF in live view to be significantly slower and may not be faster than both the 6D and 5DM3.




  
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Feb 07, 2015 03:44 |  #232

El Pedro wrote in post #17419094 (external link)
So why haven't you gone to Sony or Nikon? You're not really invested in Canon gear.

Seems you're just whinging for the sake of it.

Like i said I doubt whether you with your 550D and nifty fifty are really the target market for these new bodies. The same probably stands true for the offerings from Somy and Nikon. So why are you so upset about it? Seems clear you're not actually going to buy anything.

I feel that I've failed at choosing the correct body for me by buying the 550D about 4 years ago, but I was a "green box mode" shooter before the purchase who didn't know anything about photography. I put a lot of pressure on myself in not making the same mistake again. Also, switching systems or buying a new camera is a PITA. You have to sell your old camera, you have the possibility of getting a camera which has defects etc. But that being said, the Sony A7II (or any other near future fullframe E-mount camera) seems to suit my needs best right now.

It has nothing to do with whinging, that's just your perception. Canon is the number 1 camera brand in the world (biggest sales figures). That alone is a valid reason for me to not be enormously lagging behind the competition for 5 years or more regarding a certain parameter (in this case dynamic range at base ISO). Also many folks have complained about it for years, yet Canon has hardly made any progress so far and with each new Canon body announced people are hopeful again with disappointment as the end result. Canon should have put an end to this behaviour years ago...

FTb wrote in post #17419718 (external link)
I'm sure some people just like whining and some may actually not want Canon to succeed.

OTOH I'm pulling for Canon and really want them to prosper. I prefer my 6D and Canon lenses for shooting portraits to any other system and it would be a major PIA to change systems.

I just think it's best to make it absolutely clear to Canon what at least some of their loyal customers are thinking. I'd bet a big percentage of Sony's market is made up of Canon expatriots that jumped ship because they felt their needs were not being addressed. I don't want to be one of them.

I'm one of those guys who wants Canon to succeed, yet I have given up hope. False hope is worse than no hope at all. I'm also really starting to like the advantages that come with an EVF. Manual focus aids like e.g. focus peaking or focus magnification in the viewfinder, live exposure histogram in the viewfinder (so it's easy to use ETTR), zebra's to show which parts of the image are overexposed (before taking the picture), instant exposure preview and depth of field preview...


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Feb 07, 2015 03:49 |  #233

Interesting conversation.

Here are my thoughts:
If I were Canon's CEO I'd have my faithful cronies show me the following

1) The revenue lost by the percentage of Canon users that either went to Sony OR bought a secondary "high DR high MP body" and didn't buy another Canon body.

Versus

2) the loss of "profit margin" by using a customized Sony 50MP sensor that has superior DR and the magical ability to shut most complainers up.. ;)

and decide accordingly wherever the "higher revenues/higher profits" arrow pointed...


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Mornnb
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Feb 07, 2015 04:13 |  #234

The problem with Canon is that they suffer from 'not invented here'.
They are unable to compete with Sony's dynamic range. Sony has the patents for on sensor analog to digital conversion, which is the trick to low noise at low ISO and hence dynamic range. Doing the analog to digital conversion in the Digic chip a long electric path away from the pixels is always going to induce dynamic range lowering noise.
Canon's choice is to ignore dynamic range and focus on high ISO noise and resolution. Or to strike a deal with Sony and purchase Sony sensors. Canon appears to have too much pride to go for the option their customers want.


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melcat
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Post edited over 4 years ago by melcat. (2 edits in all)
     
Feb 07, 2015 04:18 |  #235

Mornnb wrote in post #17419738 (external link)
If you shoot architecture or landscapes you're running into sensor DR limitations all the time.

No, not all the time. I shoot both those subjects and it's really quite a rare problem for me.

I will say I have a 1" sensor camera which has real problems with architecture, and a 24mm x 36mm camera with an Exmor sensor that I sometimes use for very difficult scenes that are beyond my Canon full frame body. So it does make a difference for architecture, but doesn't IMO merit the mass hand-wringing that seems to have engulfed this and other forums in the last day.

For landscape, I find it hardly a problem at all.

What I did have a problem with before the 5dS and 5dSR were announced was Canon trading off colour accuracy for high ISO performance. The marketing material hints that this is not the case with these cameras and they've returned to the performance of earlier Canon (and current Nikon and Sony) bodies. Similarly, although I have no need of high resolution, many people do, and these cameras address the reasonable complaints from them.

Finally, the masking to 5:4 and square in the viewfinder will be viewed as a killer feature by many people.

This whole dynamic range concern has been blown up on forums way beyond its actual significance for many photographers.




  
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David ­ Stallard
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Feb 07, 2015 04:23 |  #236

As I have just sold a kidney to get the 1DX then I wont be going for one of these just yet - I will add my two penneth worth to the the Sony sensor part though . . . . awesome! I used to shoot with the Sony A900 all the time and the colour range / clarity was a lot better than Canon's hands down, the only reason I moved to Canon was because of the motor racing - I needed better / faster glass which Canon excels at and also the ability to buy replacement equipment almost anywhere - you try walking into a camera shop in the Uk and asking for a Sony lens / body off the shelf - not a chance, at least with Canon you will have the chance of picking up something in a hurry.

Anyway I digress - 50mp sensors. . . . . . superb!

.DAVID.


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Mornnb
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Feb 07, 2015 04:31 |  #237

melcat wrote in post #17419799 (external link)
This whole dynamic range concern has been blown up on forums way beyond its actual significance for many photographers.

Yes, because the photographers who are tired of working around dynamic range limitations want more dynamic range from the sensor... That may not be you but it is other people.


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Shadowblade
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Feb 07, 2015 04:44 |  #238

Mornnb wrote in post #17419805 (external link)
Yes, because the photographers who are tired of working around dynamic range limitations want more dynamic range from the sensor... That may not be you but it is other people.

Totally agree.

Funny how the people who say that the DR problem is overblown are often the same people who constantly demand higher and higher ISO - a camera limit which has never given me any trouble.




  
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Feb 07, 2015 04:58 |  #239

Mornnb wrote in post #17419805 (external link)
Yes, because the photographers who are tired of working around dynamic range limitations want more dynamic range from the sensor... That may not be you but it is other people.

Maybe you can respond to this:

Left Handed Brisket wrote in post #17419070 (external link)
I asked earlier ITT, about bracketing landscape shots, specifically, how many stops and how many shots. I thought I was asking about the user's settings for the 5DIII. Turns out he was talking about bracketing for his Sony and the answer was +3 , 0 , -3

Granted, every shot is different, but if we were to generalize and say the Canon has a two stop DR dis advantage, wouldn't a four stop bracket do the trick to match the above example?

Likewise the shot that pushes the Sony to the max ( but not beyond) would be bracketed with the Canon +/- 1 stop. There are certainly plenty of times where the Sony needs a one stop bracket and the Canon needs 2, etc, etc.

I absolutely understand that there is a benefit to more DR, but the logic of changing camera brands because a small percentage of your shots fall in the range of being too wide of a dynamic range for one camera, but just under the DR of another seems tenuous.


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Shadowblade
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Feb 07, 2015 05:35 |  #240

Left Handed Brisket wrote in post #17419816 (external link)
Maybe you can respond to this:

There are lots of situations where bracketing just isn't possible - subject movement, camera movement (e.g. shooting from a boat or helicopter, etc). And, when shooting panoramas, it's much easier, and you have a much better success rate, stitching from single exposures rather than having to stitch three different exposures and hoping they line up perfectly. I've gotten far better results with the A7r than the 5D2 - the extra two stops makes a huge difference. It's like having a free 2-stop ND filter you can apply to any part of the photo.




  
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OFFICIAL : 5DS and 5DS R Announced
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