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Thread started 05 Feb 2015 (Thursday) 07:12
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OFFICIAL : 5DS and 5DS R Announced

 
Left ­ Handed ­ Brisket
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Post edited over 4 years ago by Left Handed Brisket.
     
Feb 07, 2015 05:53 |  #241

Thanks.

My experience was telling me that for what I do two stops was not going to play a part of a high percentage of shots. I was even thinking that with landscape shots it was something that only comes into play on occasion.

I understand that the reason we all buy nice gear is to be able to make the capture, make it nice, and often to make it easier. It still sounds to me that bracketing is often necessary even with an additional two stops DR.

But if you need it, you need it.


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Feb 07, 2015 07:12 as a reply to  @ post 17419855 |  #242

I have the 5D3 and the Sony A7r, I can show you the difference with the following shot which I did as a test of both cameras.

5D3:

IMAGE: https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3914/14855940759_1acbf24bfd_b.jpg
IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/oCLz​BD  (external link) Cremorne Point 1 (external link) by mornnb (external link), on Flickr


Sony A7r:
IMAGE: https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3910/15039612481_eda86bcddd_b.jpg
IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/oUZW​Pt  (external link) Cremorne Point 2 (external link) by mornnb (external link), on Flickr


Okay looks exactly the same at this scaled down resolution right? But with large prints, such as something that would be wall mounted the difference can be noticeable.
Take a look at a crop:

IMAGE: http://imgur.com/v6KP7ha.jpg

IMAGE: http://i.imgur.com/i6xelUd.jpg


IMAGE: http://i.imgur.com/oR9LBjEl.jpg

IMAGE: http://i.imgur.com/iC8zItFl.jpg

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Left ­ Handed ­ Brisket
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Feb 07, 2015 07:19 |  #243

Mornnb wrote in post #17419921 (external link)
QUOTED IMAGE
QUOTED IMAGE
QUOTED IMAGE
QUOTED IMAGE

the shadow noise in the Sony is pretty bad.

but 'I'm not sure if that was your point. :D


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Mornnb
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Feb 07, 2015 07:26 |  #244

Hint, the Sony is the one with less noise. :lol:


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Post edited over 4 years ago by Pekka with reason 'spleling'.
     
Feb 07, 2015 07:42 |  #245

Mornnb wrote in post #17419805 (external link)
Yes, because the photographers who are tired of working around dynamic range limitations want more dynamic range from the sensor... That may not be you but it is other people.

I think each one should speak for personal experiences only and not for others (whoever they may be).

To me it feels that wanting more and more DR is often used as an "excuse" to avoid the effort of seeking for the optimum light for the subject. I see lots of test shots to demonstrate how important DR is. Those shots are usually taken without any consideration to the range between dark and light, direction of light and a moment of day to make the subject look at its best. Learning to see the "moment when light is good" has been a basic tool of trade in last 100 years: an insane DR can not make images look any better if you ignore that skill, and if you honor that skill you'll rarely need an insane DR.


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Feb 07, 2015 08:02 as a reply to  @ Pekka's post |  #246

Stop talking sense to gear heads! The numbers mean everything!! :-)

I am pretty sure the "s" in this case stands for studio...this camera is pretty clearly geared towards studio (portrait) and landscape use.


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Feb 07, 2015 08:05 |  #247

Pekka wrote in post #17419951 (external link)
I think each one should speak for personal experiences only and not for others (whoever they may be).

To me it feels that wanting more and more DR is often used as an "excuse" to avoid the effort of seeking for the optimum light for the subject. I see lots of test shots to demonstrate how important DR is. Those shots are usually taken without any consideration to the range between dark and light, direction of light and a moment of day to make the subject look at its best. Learning to see the "moment when light is good" has been a basic tool of trade in last 100 years: an insane DR can not make images look any better if you ignore that skill, and if you honor that skill you'll rarely need an insane DR.

or just to make life easier. I'm pretty much an optimum light shooter (sunrises/sunsets) and you do run into scenarios where you have to bracket.... or not. Sometimes, you just dont want to do the workaround because why should you?

consider massive DR as a feature just like autoiso. Remember the days of setting iso manually for EVERYTHING? I really dont like those days :-P

remember the times where cameras were limited to ISO 1600? Well, I dont like that.

these 5Ds have been marketed as landscape cameras along with best landscape lens ever? How can you ignore DR? That's like building the 1Dx with ISO capability of the 1Dsiii, it would be absurd.


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David ­ Arbogast
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Feb 07, 2015 08:21 |  #248

Mornnb wrote in post #17419936 (external link)
Hint, the Sony is the one with less noise. :lol:

Ok, this is exactly why some of the DR talk bothers me a little (just a little :) ). Those example images show nothing with regards to DR. I am not seeing any obvious differences between a 12 Evs and 14 Evs DR. Where are the blown highlights in the one that are fully recovered in the other? Same with shadow detail. This scene looks well within 12 Evs.

BUT, as you point out, one has noise in the shadows. That is NOT a DR issue. It IS an image quality issue stemming from the sensor's performance at the lower end of its dynamic range. I also have a strong preference for the Sony sensor due to its excellent performance in shadow detail. Such details can be recovered cleanly with very good color integrity. Not so with the 5D III's sensor.

Back to the 5DS: OK, so we know the DR is the same as the 5D III (on the testimony of Canon rep Chuck Westfall in his Dpreview interview). What we don't know yet is how well the 5DS sensor performs at the bottom end of it's dynamic range. Will it be clean with good color integrity? Or will it be like the 5D III and suffer a lot of ugly pattern noise and chroma noise with greatly diminished color integrity? This we do not yet know until we see the raw files.

To summarize, my plea is for the DR discussion to take a somewhat more nuanced tone. Let's not simply parrot the term "DR" as a catch-all term to mean any and all low-ISO sensor shortcomings.


That said, I also have a plea for those who are weary of the constant complaining about DR on the 5DS: The 5DS is a landscape, architecture, and studio camera - Canon is deliberately marketing it as such - so this of all Canon cameras is the one that really needs greater DR. Those genres are the ones with the greatest need. When Canon releases the 5D IV, and people are whinging about DR, tell them to shut up and go discuss the 5DS, which of all Canon cameras should be the DR king.

Look, if Canon released a 1DX II that only shot 7 fps and capped out at ISO 25600 there would be a lot of upset customers, right? Because that camera should dominate in those areas. Likewise, for landscapes and architecture, the 5DS should dominate at resolution, dynamic range, and low-ISO shadow detail. Potential customers have every reason and right to express frustration when we now know that the 5DS comes up short in one of those three areas.


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Post edited over 4 years ago by Mornnb. (5 edits in all)
     
Feb 07, 2015 08:32 |  #249

David Arbogast wrote in post #17419999 (external link)
Ok, this is exactly why some of the DR talk bothers me a little (just a little :) ). Those example images show nothing with regards to DR. I am not seeing any obvious differences between a 12 Evs and 14 Evs DR. Where are the blown highlights in the one that are fully recovered in the other? Same with shadow detail. This scene looks well within 12 Evs.

BUT, as you point out, one has noise in the shadows. That is NOT a DR issue. It IS an image quality issue stemming from the sensor's performance at the lower end of its dynamic range. I also have a strong preference for the Sony sensor due to its excellent performance in shadow detail. Such details can be recovered cleanly with very good color integrity. Not so with the 5D III's sensor.

Effective dynamic range is limited on Canon's sensors by excessive noise in the shadows, this is primarily what people are referring to when they talk about dynamic range because the noise on Canon sensors greatly limits how much usable data can be pulled out of the shadows.
Shadow performance is the advantage of the Sony sensor, I've not read any reports of it's highlights being better than Canon's.
In landscape when dealing with sunsets or sunrises one has to avoid blowing out the sun while capturing the dimly lit landscape, and compressing the dynamic range of the image in post by raising the shadows and dropping the highlights. This means dynamic range of the sensor of absolute importance. For the cleaner the shadows the more you can compress the dynamic range of the scene.

That said, I also have a plea for those who are weary of the constant complaining about DR on the 5DS: The 5DS is a landscape, architecture, and studio camera - Canon is deliberately marketing it as such - so this of all Canon cameras is the one that really needs greater DR. Those genres are the ones with the greatest need. When Canon releases the 5D IV, and people are whinging about DR, tell them to shut up and go discuss the 5DS, which of all Canon cameras should be the DR king.

It's all hearsay at the moment though, the cameras haven't been tested and the talk about dynamic range is based on Canon's claims. Canon could well be underselling the sensors abilities we don't know.


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Post edited over 4 years ago by Shadowblade.
     
Feb 07, 2015 08:41 |  #250

Mornnb wrote in post #17420013 (external link)
Shadow performance is the advantage of the Sony sensor, I've not read any reports of it's highlights being better than Canon's.

That's because it's impossible to have better RAW highlights. Highlights represent sensor wells being 100% full, which equals white on every camera. The key is how far below a full well you can go and still register a signal above that of background noise - at the moment, Sony/Nikon/Samsung/Lei​ca can all register a well 1/4 to 1/8 the strength of Canon (i.e. 2-3 stops better).




  
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Feb 07, 2015 08:48 |  #251

Shadowblade wrote in post #17420027 (external link)
The key is how far below a full well you can go and still register a signal above that of background noise - at the moment, Sony/Nikon/Samsung/Lei​ca can all register a well 1/4 to 1/8 the strength of Canon (i.e. 2-3 stops better).

Exactly, Canon has a lower signal to noise ratio at low ISO. What this means in practise is lower dynamic range, as details in shadows become obstructed by heavy noise.


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Feb 07, 2015 09:00 |  #252

another thing that really stands out in my mind. Considering that a 1Ds was $7000.00

For a studio, landscape, architect use, this is a bloody bargain at its price point

I saw no need to jump on a 1Dx when the 5D3 was compared to it. Even less of a need now that the 7D2 has the same AF system in it as the 1Dx.

So like many people, this camera update is not for me. I will continue to use a very capable 5D3

But canon has a real problem on its hands. just as nikon does.as well. Lots of people are sick of carrying around a tank with the 1D4 and i think the d750s are on back order. The D750 is a great camera.

The cameras that are just behind the flagships price points are very exceptional cameras. For me, with 2 5D3's and a 7D2, there isnt much i cant do compared to what the 1Dx is going to let me capture and 2 bodies that are cheaper than the price of the single 1Dx is how i see it

Im going to be real curious to see what canon has in store for the 1D line up because the current 5D3 is a really good camera. What could they possibly do with a 5D4 introduction thats not going to wipe out the need to jump at a 1Dx. At this point .... DR, and ISO performance and speed for the majority of photographers is what separates cameras. ISO and performance in low light is everything. Sony figured that out. Canon needs to do the same.

I think what i was told is correct and there is a reason that 5D4 is not announced yet. My guess is that canon is waiting on the patent process and will have huge announcements in the next year. I think the 5D4 will be as good as the current 1Dx....and the 1Dx will be the sensor that solves the Sony problem for canon......and if you want it...they are going to make you pay through the nose to have it :-P


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Feb 07, 2015 09:14 |  #253

umphotography wrote in post #17420046 (external link)
another thing that really stands out in my mind. Considering that a 1Ds was $7000.00

For a studio, landscape, architect use, this is a bloody bargain at its price point

I saw no need to jump on a 1Dx when the 5D3 was compared to it. Even less of a need now that the 7D2 has the same AF system in it as the 1Dx.

So like many people, this camera update is not for me. I will continue to use a very capable 5D3

But canon has a real problem on its hands. just as nikon does.as well. Lots of people are sick of carrying around a tank with the 1D4 and i think the d750s are on back order. The D750 is a great camera.

The cameras that are just behind the flagships price points are very exceptional cameras. For me, with 2 5D3's and a 7D2, there isnt much i cant do compared to what the 1Dx is going to let me capture and 2 bodies that are cheaper than the price of the single 1Dx is how i see it

Im going to be real curious to see what canon has in store for the 1D line up because the current 5D3 is a really good camera. What could they possibly do with a 5D4 introduction thats not going to wipe out the need to jump at a 1Dx. At this point .... DR, and ISO performance and speed for the majority of photographers is what separates cameras. ISO and performance in low light is everything. Sony figured that out. Canon needs to do the same.

I think what i was told is correct and there is a reason that 5D4 is not announced yet. My guess is that canon is waiting on the patent process and will have huge announcements in the next year. I think the 5D4 will be as good as the current 1Dx....and the 1Dx will be the sensor that solves the Sony problem for canon......and if you want it...they are going to make you pay through the nose to have it :-P

The problem for Canon is that the D800 and D810 both cost around $3000, with a similar feature set. If the D810's replacement costs around the same amount, the Canon will look pretty silly costing 30% more, even if the sensors end up having equal performance.

Basically, a high-resolution, high-DR body with pro-level AF, dual cards and all the features (minus the integrated grip, which is at best useful to some and detrimental to others) no longer commands a $7000 price point. It commands a $3000 price point, and Canon cannot change that unilaterally. It can price its own body at whatever level it likes, but, if the competition offers a similar or better body at a lower price point, it won't sell to anyone except the rusted-ons.




  
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Feb 07, 2015 09:19 |  #254

Mornnb wrote in post #17420013 (external link)
Effective dynamic range is limited on Canon's sensors by excessive noise in the shadows, this is primarily what people are referring to when they talk about dynamic range because the noise on Canon sensors greatly limits how much usable data can be pulled out of the shadows.
Shadow performance is the advantage of the Sony sensor, I've not read any reports of it's highlights being better than Canon's.

That is not what I am referring to regarding DR (and I am a people). Dynamic range should be a black-and-white clinical term used to describe the actual measurable upper and lower limits of the sensor's light gathering abilities: the range cut-offs being where the sensor is no longer capable of capturing detail. It is the range that DXO measures and documents.

If we want to discuss "effective" or usable DR, then that speaks to relative personal opinion, and we would do well to make the distinction clear. It does raise a good discussion point: If the 5D III sensor has a measured 12-Evs DR, then what what is its "effective" DR? 10-Evs? We have been having this discussion based on the actual measured DR differences (12-Evs vs 14-Evs) and some are asking does that somewhat small performance gap really make a difference? Well, let's get clearer. If the Canon sensor has a diminished "effective" or usable DR, then we are no longer discussing a mere 2-Evs performance gap - it's actually much greater than that.

Mornnb wrote in post #17420013 (external link)
In landscape when dealing with sunsets or sunrises one has to avoid blowing out the sun while capturing the dimly lit landscape, and compressing the dynamic range of the image in post by raising the shadows and dropping the highlights. This means dynamic range of the sensor of absolute importance. For the cleaner the shadows the more you can compress the dynamic range of the scene.

Was there anything in my post that suggested an unawareness of how to set a proper exposure for landscapes? I'll say it again: Of all Canon cameras, this one - one dedicated to landscapes and architecture - should dominate in the dynamic range category.

Mornnb wrote in post #17420013 (external link)
It's all hearsay at the moment though, the cameras haven't been tested and the talk about dynamic range is based on Canon's claims. Canon could well be underselling the sensors abilities we don't know.

Obviously true, yet well worth saying. I too hope Canon/Westfall is underselling the true capabilities of the 5DS sensor. :)


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Feb 07, 2015 09:48 |  #255

dolina wrote in post #17419575 (external link)
The 51MP 5DS ($3,699) & 5DS R ($3,899) are high end studio and landscape cameras. Think medium format applications where large or finely detailed prints are required.

These cameras do not replace the 5D Mark III per Canon USA video.



Okay, now I'm fine with the 5DS and 5DS R. I was fuming over the loss of two stops. I shoot a lot of night work, marching band, and I'm usually M, 1/500s, f/5.6 (for DoF), and ISO 12,800+.


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