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FORUMS Canon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon EOS Digital Cameras 
Thread started 05 Feb 2015 (Thursday) 07:12
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OFFICIAL : 5DS and 5DS R Announced

 
Jamooche
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Feb 14, 2015 00:20 |  #496

Shadowblade wrote in post #17430709 (external link)
Actually, nowadays, everyone apart from Canon is sitting at 13.8-15 stops of DR for their full-frame sensors. So it's Canon, not Sony, who are the odd one out.

And, yes, an extra 2-3 stops of usable DR makes a huge difference. Think of all the shots which can't be taken in a single exposure without a filter, but which can be managed with a 2- or 3-stop GND filter. That's a lot of landscapes. Now imagine a filter which can be applied anywhere in the scene, instead of being limited by horizons and unusabe where the line of transition isn't straight.

That's what you can do with 2-3 extra stops of DR. It doesn't make your photos any better, but it makes previously-impossible photos trivial.

This is a great point and the exact same thoughts I am having. However, I have yet to find a blog or website that shows this in a real world example. This would be an example of the D810 taking a photo with no filters and the 5DIII achieving the same results with a 2 stop GND filter in place. My assumption also is that this 2-3 stops is straight out of camera with no manipulation.

Does anyone know a good link / example to readily show this advantage?


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Somebloke
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Feb 14, 2015 00:58 |  #497

So does this mean there will be no 5d4?




  
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Shadowblade
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Feb 14, 2015 01:28 |  #498

Jamooche wrote in post #17431095 (external link)
This is a great point and the exact same thoughts I am having. However, I have yet to find a blog or website that shows this in a real world example. This would be an example of the D810 taking a photo with no filters and the 5DIII achieving the same results with a 2 stop GND filter in place. My assumption also is that this 2-3 stops is straight out of camera with no manipulation.

Does anyone know a good link / example to readily show this advantage?

You'll never find an example like this.

The reason is that the default tonemapping curves on cameras are basically designed for everyday, low-contrast family photos and use only a very small part of the sensor's dynamic range. That is, using the default conversion, highlights clip to white in the final image much sooner than they actually do in the RAW file, while shadows clip to black where the RAW file actually contains many more stops of detail below this.

To use a sensor's full dynamic range, you need to use a custom conversion curve, and the post-processing of the file is somewhat different to normal because you're starting with a file whose midtones are, by necessity, compressed.




  
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Submariner
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Feb 14, 2015 03:28 |  #499

I read a number of statements by Canon officials that the DR of the 5DS R will be about the same as the 5D3, and the pixel noise similar to the 7DII.

But I was sure I saw some reference, that said the DR had been shifted to the left, 1.5 to 2 stops left of the 1DX. So its fine when using a low ISO. But I Cant seem to find that statement again. Was I mistaken ( wishful thinking)?
Similarly I thought it said that with Low ISO, the noise had been improved at the pixel level over the 7DII. Thus meaning the Sensor had really been tuned for low ISO usage.
At the time I read it - I thought that makes sense, why they capped off the high ISO - and I could live with that.

If its true - would that not solve my problem of lifting shadows in Studio and location Portraits, i.e. be a pretty good camera for my main usage?
I appreciate, that wouldn't solve the problem for the Landscape guys, who really nead a wider range


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welshwizard1971
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Feb 14, 2015 04:53 |  #500

Found an interesting little review to support my 'buy an A7R to go with your canon kit rather than jump ship to nikon' train of thought...

http://www.fredmiranda​.com/A7R-review/ (external link)


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Mornnb
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Feb 14, 2015 05:58 |  #501

Shadowblade wrote in post #17428477 (external link)
Even if it were, this is a landscape lens, not really an architectural one (architecture practically demands perspective control). For a landscape lens, I don't worry about distortion and am more interested in absolute sharpness, lack of CA and control of coma (for night skies) and other aberrations.

Actually... perspective control is only really important for building external shots. For interiors, which tend to be far more human scale hence less issues of perspective control, a 11mm lens could be quite handy.


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Mornnb
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Feb 14, 2015 06:01 |  #502

Two Hot Shoes wrote in post #17429128 (external link)
Shot from the 5Ds - I've grabbed and compressed a bit for here & no CPS didn't give me one to play with.


thumbnail
Hosted photo: posted by Two Hot Shoes in
./showthread.php?p=174​29128&i=i101748849
forum: Canon EOS Digital Cameras



thumbnail
Hosted photo: posted by Two Hot Shoes in
./showthread.php?p=174​29128&i=i69542807
forum: Canon EOS Digital Cameras




Grab the full res here http://canon-premium.webcdn.stream.​ne.jp …s/eos5ds/downlo​ads/01.jpg (external link)

I would love to know what lens is being used in this shot, 50MP is going to be far more demanding on lens optics, and edge sharpness issues at wide apertures is going to be far more obvious. This is a most devious means for Canon to get people to upgrade their kit. ;)

Take a look at this sample picture from Canon, zoom into it at 100%. The amount of detail this camera captures is utterly amazing and ridiculous. This is medium format class.

http://canon-premium.webcdn.stream.​ne.jp …s/eos5ds/downlo​ads/01.jpg (external link)


Canon 5D Mark III - Leica M240
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Left ­ Handed ­ Brisket
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Feb 14, 2015 06:24 |  #503

Somebloke wrote in post #17431111 (external link)
So does this mean there will be no 5d4?

i (and others) suspect that there will be a 28-36 MP FF camera out this summer.

I have not read this, but my feelings after seeing this introduction is that it might more likely be a 6D II that would combine the best of the two, plus a better sensor. The 5D badge would become the high resolution camera and the 6D would be the higher DR camera.


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sploo
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Feb 14, 2015 06:25 |  #504

Jamooche wrote in post #17431095 (external link)
This is a great point and the exact same thoughts I am having. However, I have yet to find a blog or website that shows this in a real world example. This would be an example of the D810 taking a photo with no filters and the 5DIII achieving the same results with a 2 stop GND filter in place. My assumption also is that this 2-3 stops is straight out of camera with no manipulation.

Does anyone know a good link / example to readily show this advantage?

This is slightly different to what you were asking but it does show the difference of applying some post processing to shadow areas on the 5D3 vs the D800: http://www.fredmiranda​.com …dex_controlled-tests.html (external link)

He later mentions improving the results on the 5D3 by overexposing slightly. Obviously this risks clipping highlights, so in theory if you had an ND filter that covered the brightest areas of the image you might be able to overexpose and hold the highlights. But that's clearly not practical in that scene, and is why the DR advantage (i.e. the reduced noise in shadows) makes such a difference on a non-Canon sensor.


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Two ­ Hot ­ Shoes
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Feb 14, 2015 07:52 |  #505

Mornnb wrote in post #17431252 (external link)
I would love to know what lens is being used in this shot


The lens was an EF70-200mm F/2.8L IS II @170mm using f8 & ISO 100


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tvphotog
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Post edited over 4 years ago by tvphotog. (2 edits in all)
     
Feb 14, 2015 10:42 |  #506

sploo wrote in post #17431266 (external link)
This is slightly different to what you were asking but it does show the difference of applying some post processing to shadow areas on the 5D3 vs the D800: http://www.fredmiranda​.com …dex_controlled-tests.html (external link)

He later mentions improving the results on the 5D3 by overexposing slightly. Obviously this risks clipping highlights, so in theory if you had an ND filter that covered the brightest areas of the image you might be able to overexpose and hold the highlights. But that's clearly not practical in that scene, and is why the DR advantage (i.e. the reduced noise in shadows) makes such a difference on a non-Canon sensor.

Thank you for posting that, I had seen that comparison when the 5D3 came out but forgot to save it, and couldn't remember where I had seen it. This is exactly why I was going to switch to Nikon when the D800 cam out. But then I thought better of it, as I think overall that the 5D3 is a better all around camera.

Also, since the 3 came out, I mainly shoot in Manual mode, for special circumstances in A Mode, and always expose 1 EV to the right, or more. It's much easier to retrieve detail from an overexposed image from the right of the histogram than the other way round. Even shooting in A mode, I set exposure so that neutral is always 1 EV or more to the right. That also means a reduction in shadow noise on pushing the exposure back to the center.

Now we're up to 34 pages and the S and SR won't be out for testing by reviews for another couple months, I would say. I better get that 10TB hard drive.


Jay
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Shadowblade
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Feb 14, 2015 12:53 |  #507

tvphotog wrote in post #17431506 (external link)
Thank you for posting that, I had seen that comparison when the 5D3 came out but forgot to save it, and couldn't remember where I had seen it. This is exactly why I was going to switch to Nikon when the D800 cam out. But then I thought better of it, as I think overall that the 5D3 is a better all around camera.

Also, since the 3 came out, I mainly shoot in Manual mode, for special circumstances in A Mode, and always expose 1 EV to the right, or more. It's much easier to retrieve detail from an overexposed image from the right of the histogram than the other way round. Even shooting in A mode, I set exposure so that neutral is always 1 EV or more to the right. That also means a reduction in shadow noise on pushing the exposure back to the center.

Now we're up to 34 pages and the S and SR won't be out for testing by reviews for another couple months, I would say. I better get that 10TB hard drive.

People like to quote ETTR religiously whenever shadow noise and dynamic range issues are mentioned, but, it only works if the scene doesn't exceed the DR of the RAW file (not the JPEG) in the first place.

You can only expose to the right as far as your highlights aren't blown out. But, when shooting high-DR scenes (like many landscapes) you're already as far to the right as you can go without blowing out parts of the sky, while other parts of the scene will still be in deep shadow. Essentially, you're exposing to the right and left at the same time, since the scene's DR exceeds, or is close to, the DR of the sensor/RAW file. The only solution is to capture more DR, either with a sensor with a greater DR, or via multiple-exposure techniques. And this is where Canon really falls flat at the moment.




  
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tvphotog
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Feb 14, 2015 13:08 as a reply to  @ Shadowblade's post |  #508

I use ND gradient filters all the time in those situations to reduce the right side of the histogram, which greatly reduces the problem you're talking about. Works extremely well. More DR is always helpful.


Jay
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Shadowblade
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Feb 14, 2015 13:18 |  #509

tvphotog wrote in post #17431698 (external link)
I use ND gradient filters all the time in those situations to reduce the right side of the histogram, which greatly reduces the problem you're talking about. Works extremely well. More DR is always helpful.

Works extremely well... except when you have a tree, building, rock or other object projecting well past the horizon, or just a non-linear transition (e.g. mountains). Which is a common-enough occurrence in landscape photography.




  
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tvphotog
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Feb 14, 2015 13:33 |  #510

Shadowblade wrote in post #17431710 (external link)
Works extremely well... except when you have a tree, building, rock or other object projecting well past the horizon, or just a non-linear transition (e.g. mountains). Which is a common-enough occurrence in landscape photography.

Easy to correct in PP. Vast majority of bright is reduced with a filter. Best to do everything you can in the field.


Jay
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