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FORUMS Canon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon EOS Digital Cameras 
Thread started 05 Feb 2015 (Thursday) 07:12
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OFFICIAL : 5DS and 5DS R Announced

 
Shadowblade
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Feb 19, 2015 06:34 |  #616

jonneymendoza wrote in post #17438749 (external link)
true, i think ISO 6400 in some scenarios. i think for sport, high ISO is needed more as lots of sport are played in dim lights/indoors.

sometimes 1/1000 is not fast enough tbh :) and if you want less shallow depth of field to help focus tracking your going to need to sacrifice the ISO

Sports is very different - you normally have a shorter, faster lens, need faster shutter speeds (1/1000-1/4000) and are often shooting in poorer lighting. Live music or stage performances are even more challenging in terms of low-light capability, but you aren't focal length limited. No doubt the 5Ds is suboptimal for these kinds of photography.

But, at the moment, I'd take a D810 over a 1Dx any day for shooting wildlife; the 5Ds looks even better, since it combines high resolution and top-level AF with the ability to use the Canon 200-400L with its inbuilt 1.4x TC.




  
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David ­ Arbogast
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Feb 19, 2015 09:34 |  #617

lsquare wrote in post #17438720 (external link)
There's no evidence that the 5DS won't have shutter shock or any other internal vibration issues.

Huh? Of course there is no "evidence" - the 5DS isn't shipping yet. ;) However, Canon has taken pains to describe their engineering efforts on the shutter/mirror mechanism, so I have some optimism there. Even if the Canon shutter is no better than the a7R (extremely unlikely), the sheer weight of the 5DS will serve to dampen the shutter somewhat.


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Feb 19, 2015 11:54 |  #618

Just imagine what the results would be like if one were able to get ML to implement Dual ISO on these 50 Mpix cameras. As long as you are not FL limited on the sensor size, then you should be able to do some Dual ISO, and get really good results and still have a 20 plus Mpix image to export after processing. That is of course if the new sensor will allow Dual ISO to operate. How many stops of DR do you want?

Alan


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Shadowblade
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Feb 19, 2015 14:00 |  #619

BigAl007 wrote in post #17439259 (external link)
Just imagine what the results would be like if one were able to get ML to implement Dual ISO on these 50 Mpix cameras. As long as you are not FL limited on the sensor size, then you should be able to do some Dual ISO, and get really good results and still have a 20 plus Mpix image to export after processing. That is of course if the new sensor will allow Dual ISO to operate. How many stops of DR do you want?

Alan

That's only if DR is all you want.

IMO dual ISO comes at too high a cost in resolution (every area where the higher ISO blows the whites is at half resolution with increased aliasing, as is every area where the lower ISO fails to lift the shadows above the noise floor) and in fine banding (since alternate lines of pixels are read at different ISOs).

Canon really need to improve their A/D conversion so that the lower part of the DR/ISO curve is linear, for a file that is essentially ISO-less. That's essentially how DR on a Sony/Nikon/Samsung/Lei​ca/Olympus/Phase One camera works - you can shoot the scene at base ISO for maximum DR, then selectively push the shadows digitally until they reach an exposure level you feel is adequate. After post-processing, in a landscape shot at ISO 100, the sky may have an effective ISO of 25 to 50 (since you've pulled it a bit) while the darker parts of the foreground may have an effective ISO of 400-800 after being pushed 2-3 stops. You can't really do that with a Canon file. Dual ISO increases the luminance range captured, but introduces other artifacts which aren't present when every pixel is effectively multiple-ISO.




  
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woos
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Feb 19, 2015 16:16 |  #620

Shadowblade wrote in post #17437232 (external link)
The thing is, good DR at high ISO should mean even better DR at low ISO.

Right. That is what is so frustrating sometimes, the underyling sensor is so good. Canon *should* have class leading dr performance, but doesn't.

My predictions for the 5d IV:

1. ~28-32mp, somewhere in there.

2. 8 FPS

3. No GPS or WIFI

4. No movable screen

5. 4k video, better DR, only slightly better high ISO performance

6. More AF points.

6d II predictions:

1. 32-40mp

2. 5fps

3. GPS and WIFI flash trigger

4. Movable screen

5. 4k video, or if its there it will be significantly reduced in bitrate, etc, from the 5d IV

6. Better, but still simple, AF.


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RDKirk
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Feb 19, 2015 21:00 |  #621

Nobody remembers the 1Ds? Just as in that case, the "s" stands for "studio." That's all necessary to know. Canon USA's own Chuck Westfall (glad to see him back online) explains that the 5Ds would be great for landscapes and architecture, but most other photographers would prefer the 5DIII.

https://www.youtube.co​m/watch?v=RSQTKM3nQ5U (external link).




  
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manderson
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Feb 20, 2015 02:40 |  #622

RDKirk wrote in post #17440026 (external link)
the 5Ds would be great for landscapes and architecture, but most other photographers would prefer the 5DIII.

I'm perfectly happy with the 5DIII for landscape and architecture. I migrated from 7D to 5DIII and found it was the perfect camera for me. I can't get excited about the new Canon 5 series announcements. I don't see them doing anything better beyond my present needs. Lots of good reading and tech specs on intended application in this thread. The only thing that would sell me would be incredibly improved low light performance. Frankly, the 5DIII performs pretty well in low light, so it would need to be a drastic improvement. Maybe when real life samples start showing up I'll change my mind, but for now I'll continue to focus on good glass.




  
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Mornnb
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Feb 20, 2015 06:28 |  #623

tvphotog wrote in post #17437864 (external link)
Exactly what I plan to do now, after careful consideration up until this point. It's very convincing from reading all these posts that the a7R is a very good alternative for me as a tripod-landscape shooter, if the 5DR doesn't pass muster.

I can wait for a new Sony model, as well as until a 5D IV is announced, which I think will be in the summer or fall. I will bet money that a new 5D IV will have a 50MP sensor; I wonder if they will put the mirror dampening mechanism in that upgrade. It would be funny if a new Sony came out before the release of the 5DS and SR.Talk about an exciting year.

This is what I did, and the Sony a7R lives up to expectations. The sensor is fantastic. However, note that you will find the colour is a little different to Canon sensors, i.e. the reds are toned down a bit.
It's a great compact camera that doesn't draw attention as well, hence it serves well for street photography as well. People figure you're a harmless tourist with a harmless camera.
However it has a few disadvantages. Autofocus. Build quality. It's reliability and build quality is much closer to what you will find in a modern smart phone than what you get with a Canon DSLR. It feels like a consumer device. For various reasons, such as how long it takes to boot, the plastic screen, the smooth finish that tends to catch more dust in the field etc. It is exactly what you would expect from a consumer company which doesn't have much of legacy with pro photography gear but has great technology. The image quality of the sensor is outstanding and blows away the 5D3, even with a lossly raw file.


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RDKirk
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Feb 20, 2015 06:50 |  #624

manderson wrote in post #17440316 (external link)
I'm perfectly happy with the 5DIII for landscape and architecture. I migrated from 7D to 5DIII and found it was the perfect camera for me. I can't get excited about the new Canon 5 series announcements. I don't see them doing anything better beyond my present needs. Lots of good reading and tech specs on intended application in this thread. The only thing that would sell me would be incredibly improved low light performance. Frankly, the 5DIII performs pretty well in low light, so it would need to be a drastic improvement. Maybe when real life samples start showing up I'll change my mind, but for now I'll continue to focus on good glass.

You missed my point. My point is that Canon USA's own long-time spokesperson said that the 5Ds is not for everyone, and that the 5DIII is clearly a better camera for many.




  
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Somebloke
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Feb 20, 2015 13:49 as a reply to  @ RDKirk's post |  #625

To tell you the truth I've always been dissapointed with the low light performance and noise :(




  
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Shadowblade
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Feb 20, 2015 14:02 |  #626

Somebloke wrote in post #17441045 (external link)
To tell you the truth I've always been dissapointed with the low light performance and noise :(

Then get the 1Dx - that's what it's meant for. Although they really should release that sensor in a 5D-format body, like what Nikon did with the Df using the sensor from the D4.

Canon and Nikon's top-of-the-line general-purpose bodies - the 5D and D810 (the 1Dx and D4s being specialist action cameras) - really need to be released with three different sensors. One for resolution and low-ISO IQ, (e.g. 5Ds), one for general-purpose (e.g. 5D3) and one for low-light performance (e.g. Df). Otherwise the requirements of the high-resolution, low-ISO shooters and the low-resolution, high-ISO shooters are almost diametrically opposed, and a compromise in the middle pleases no-one and sends the specialised shooters to seek more specialised gear (e.g. A7r and A7s).

Sony did it with the A7s, A7r and A7 - and it looks like the regular A7 (not counting the A72, which is a new generation) fared more poorly than its two specialised cousins, with many of its pro users opting either for two A7r (if they're after resolution and low-ISO quality), two A7s (if they mainly shoot low-light - I know at least three wedding photographers who have ditched their 1Dx setups for the A7s) or one of each (if they shoot everything), rather than going for the in-the-middle A7.




  
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Somebloke
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Feb 20, 2015 14:08 as a reply to  @ Shadowblade's post |  #627

Nah I'll save my money and just use flash ;) The point i was making though is everybody always seems to rave about the 5d3 low light performance, but to me even at 1.4 in overcast conditions I have been dissapointed..Sure at small size prints it looks great, but push it bigger and mehhh




  
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Feb 20, 2015 14:43 |  #628

Shadowblade wrote in post #17441090 (external link)
Sony did it with the A7s, A7r and A7 - and it looks like the regular A7 (not counting the A72, which is a new generation) fared more poorly than its two specialised cousins, with many of its pro users opting either for two A7r (if they're after resolution and low-ISO quality), two A7s (if they mainly shoot low-light - I know at least three wedding photographers who have ditched their 1Dx setups for the A7s) or one of each (if they shoot everything), rather than going for the in-the-middle A7.

High ISO performance is a compromise with resolution. The pixel size of the 5Ds is about the same as the 7D Mark II, hence it can not be expected to have better high ISO than a crop camera. You get it for the resolution.
The camera with the best high iso performance out there is the Sony A7s, it's 12MP sensor has massively sized pixels which suck up light. It would be nice for Canon to provide such a low resolution camera for those that require low noise high ISO.

Take a look at what you can do with these abilities, landscapes in moonlight:
http://www.donsmithblo​g.com …igh-iso-camera-available/ (external link)


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Shadowblade
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Feb 20, 2015 14:48 |  #629

Mornnb wrote in post #17441178 (external link)
High ISO performance is a compromise with resolution. The pixel size of the 5Ds is about the same as the 7D Mark II, hence it can not be expected to have better high ISO than a crop camera. You get it for the resolution.
The camera with the best high iso performance out there is the Sony A7s, it's 12MP sensor has massively sized pixels which suck up light. It would be nice for Canon to provide such a low resolution camera for those that require low noise high ISO.

Obviously.

So, if you need a high-ISO camera, get one. If you need a low-ISO, high-resolution camera, get a different one. You can't expect one tool to do every job.

And that's the problem with general-purpose cameras - they do everything adequately, but nothing spectacularly well. Good for beginners who don't really know what they want to shoot or for those who don't want/can't handle multiple bodies, but, ultimately, suboptimal compared to dedicated bodies.




  
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Feb 20, 2015 15:08 |  #630

Shadowblade wrote in post #17441188 (external link)
Obviously.

So, if you need a high-ISO camera, get one. If you need a low-ISO, high-resolution camera, get a different one. You can't expect one tool to do every job.

And that's the problem with general-purpose cameras - they do everything adequately, but nothing spectacularly well. Good for beginners who don't really know what they want to shoot or for those who don't want/can't handle multiple bodies, but, ultimately, suboptimal compared to dedicated bodies.

I don't fully agree here. When you're not shooting with a particular goal in mind, those "good at everything, great at nothing" cameras do make sense. For me e.g. the A7II is the best of the bunch (A7/A7II/A7R/A7S) since it has phase detect AF points and IBIS even though resolution is not up to A7R standards and high ISO performance is not up to A7S standards. That being said, I do like the concept of providing multiple bodies within a certain model where each one has its strengths and weaknesses and where there is one that's good, but not great, at everything (for people who don't want multiple bodies or for people who don't always have a goal in mind when they're out taking pictures, not necessarily for beginners like you said). Future-wise I'm thinking of a switchable sensor module.


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OFFICIAL : 5DS and 5DS R Announced
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