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FORUMS Canon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon EOS Digital Cameras 
Thread started 05 Feb 2015 (Thursday) 07:12
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OFFICIAL : 5DS and 5DS R Announced

 
Charlie
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Feb 20, 2015 15:10 |  #631

Mornnb wrote in post #17441178 (external link)
High ISO performance is a compromise with resolution. The pixel size of the 5Ds is about the same as the 7D Mark II, hence it can not be expected to have better high ISO than a crop camera. You get it for the resolution.

You are referring to pixel level noise, and if the 5ds matches the 7d2, it will be quite good when judged as a whole.

Compare a aps-c image vs FF image cropped to the same FOV, and most certainly the aps-c will have better iso performance.

I would expect a resized 5ds image to beat all other canon's at native ISO's.


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Feb 20, 2015 15:10 |  #632

Shadowblade wrote in post #17441188 (external link)
Obviously.

So, if you need a high-ISO camera, get one. If you need a low-ISO, high-resolution camera, get a different one. You can't expect one tool to do every job.

Which is what Canon's Chuck Westfall said. The "s" stands for "studio," not "everything."


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Shadowblade
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Feb 20, 2015 15:20 |  #633

jocau wrote in post #17441210 (external link)
I don't fully agree here. When you're not shooting with a particular goal in mind, those "good at everything, great at nothing" cameras do make sense. For me e.g. the A7II is the best of the bunch (A7/A7II/A7R/A7S) since it has phase detect AF points and IBIS even though resolution is not up to A7R standards and high ISO performance is not up to A7S standards. That being said, I do like the concept of providing multiple bodies within a certain model where each one has its strengths and weaknesses and where there is one that's good, but not great, at everything (for people who don't want multiple bodies or for people who don't always have a goal in mind when they're out taking pictures, not necessarily for beginners like you said).

The A72 is a newer generation and hard to compare to the older generation of A7 bodies - I'd wait until the A7r2 and A7s2 before making a fair judgment.

Certainly, if I were on a shooting trip and didn't know what I was going to shoot, I'd prefer to take one of each type of specialist body (e.g. A7r and A7s, or D810 and D4s) rather than a general-purpose body.




  
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Feb 20, 2015 16:00 |  #634

Shadowblade wrote in post #17441235 (external link)
The A72 is a newer generation and hard to compare to the older generation of A7 bodies - I'd wait until the A7r2 and A7s2 before making a fair judgment.

Certainly, if I were on a shooting trip and didn't know what I was going to shoot, I'd prefer to take one of each type of specialist body (e.g. A7r and A7s, or D810 and D4s) rather than a general-purpose body.

It has about the same sensor as the A7, but with IBIS and the rest of the features just got a bit more mature. So it's not really a new generation camera in my opinion (it's just what the original A7 should have been from the start). When you're out for a walk with e.g. your friends or family and photography isn't the main goal of the walk, then those general-purpose bodies make much more sense in my opinion. Also, please note that not every photographer wants to buy two bodies or carry around two bodies all the time, whether they are professional or not (and if they do, it's more because of backup reasons in case their first body dies).


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Charlie
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Feb 20, 2015 16:14 as a reply to  @ jocau's post |  #635

I definitely dont like different sensor types for different folks. I like how crop sensors are, mostly all the same bodies, different features of the body for different shooters.

Eventually, high MP will be the standard, and should be. All will have fairly good high ISO, and should trend that way. Keep it simple for the consumers, dont segment the hell out of the cameras, that's just lame.

High ISO of the 6D, resolution of the 5Ds, DR of sony, is that too much to ask? I guess so.

The A7r is actually close, and noise is tolerable at high ISO's, however color fidelity at high ISO is it's biggest weakness. I'll just have to see how dumbed down this camera is, I have very little faith in canon these days.


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Feb 20, 2015 16:24 |  #636

Charlie wrote in post #17441309 (external link)
I definitely dont like different sensor types for different folks. I like how crop sensors are, mostly all the same bodies, different features of the body for different shooters.

Eventually, high MP will be the standard, and should be. All will have fairly good high ISO, and should trend that way. Keep it simple for the consumers, dont segment the hell out of the cameras, that's just lame.

High ISO of the 6D, resolution of the 5Ds, DR of sony, is that too much to ask? I guess so.

The A7r is actually close, and noise is tolerable at high ISO's, however color fidelity at high ISO is it's biggest weakness. I'll just have to see how dumbed down this camera is, I have very little faith in canon these days.

You can't have high resolution and superb high ISO performance at the same time (unless you have a really big sensor). Since more MP means smaller photodiodes which in turn catch less light. You can't outrun physics. At least not in the short term. That's why the 5Ds (R) won't have great high ISO performance. Its photodiodes will be too small for that.


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Shadowblade
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Feb 20, 2015 16:52 |  #637

jocau wrote in post #17441320 (external link)
You can't have high resolution and superb high ISO performance at the same time (unless you have a really big sensor). Since more MP means smaller photodiodes which in turn catch less light. You can't outrun physics. At least not in the short term. That's why the 5Ds (R) won't have great high ISO performance. Its photodiodes will be too small for that.

Yes you can.

High-ISO performance is about light captured over the whole sensor, not light captured per pixel. If both sensors are the same size, the same amount of light will fall on them when shooting the same scene at the same aperture setting. The only difference is that the higher-resolution sensor samples the data more finely. The lower-resolution sensor will have better per-pixel performance, but not better whole-image performance (i.e. printed at the same size), which is what really matters.

This is why almost every full-frame sensor has better high-ISO performance than almost every crop sensor, regardless of resolution - there just isn't any substitute to capturing 2.25x to 2.56x as much light.

You could improve high-ISO performance even further by increasing the sensor size (assuming same technology - there's no comparing CCD to CMOS), but then you start to run into difficulties with depth of field - if you want the same depth of field as a full-frame sensor with a larger sensor, you'll need to stop down, and the ISO increase required to mitigate the effect of stopping down exactly cancels out the ISO-improving effect of increasing the sensor size in the first place. Of course, if you can make do with an even shallower depth of field, and a fast-enough lens exists for you to do it (f/2.8 lenses are common for full-frame, less so for MF) you'll benefit from the improved high-ISO performance of the larger sensor.




  
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Shadowblade
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Feb 20, 2015 16:54 |  #638

Charlie wrote in post #17441309 (external link)
I definitely dont like different sensor types for different folks. I like how crop sensors are, mostly all the same bodies, different features of the body for different shooters.

Eventually, high MP will be the standard, and should be. All will have fairly good high ISO, and should trend that way. Keep it simple for the consumers, dont segment the hell out of the cameras, that's just lame.

High ISO of the 6D, resolution of the 5Ds, DR of sony, is that too much to ask? I guess so.

The A7r is actually close, and noise is tolerable at high ISO's, however color fidelity at high ISO is it's biggest weakness. I'll just have to see how dumbed down this camera is, I have very little faith in canon these days.

If you want better colour fidelity, you need stronger colour filters or more sampling (shooting at lower ISO). Either one hurts high ISO performance.




  
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Charlie
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Feb 20, 2015 16:58 |  #639

jocau wrote in post #17441320 (external link)
You can't have high resolution and superb high ISO performance at the same time (unless you have a really big sensor). Since more MP means smaller photodiodes which in turn catch less light. You can't outrun physics. At least not in the short term. That's why the 5Ds (R) won't have great high ISO performance. Its photodiodes will be too small for that.

uhh, not talking about the pixel level..... you can definitely have high resolution AND high ISO.

the A7r and A7 score practically the same when it comes to lowlight with dxomark.

The 5D2 outdid the 5Dc. The D800 and D600 had practically the same lowlight performance.

physics has nothing to do with it, we're talking about same sensor sizes and same output sizes.


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Feb 20, 2015 18:19 |  #640

Charlie wrote in post #17441365 (external link)
uhh, not talking about the pixel level..... you can definitely have high resolution AND high ISO.

the A7r and A7 score practically the same when it comes to lowlight with dxomark.

The 5D2 outdid the 5Dc. The D800 and D600 had practically the same lowlight performance.

physics has nothing to do with it, we're talking about same sensor sizes and same output sizes.

Well, then I misunderstood you. When I'm talking about low light performance, I'm always talking about noise at pixel level (i.e. evaluating the noise from the RAW file zoomed in to 100% or 1:1 with no noise reduction applied in post). I believe DXOMark resizes all images to 8MP and then compares the noise performance, which in my opinion doesn't say that much about the actual noise performance since you don't buy a high MP body to downscale images all the time (except for web images). 5Dc and 5D2 are what, 3 years apart? That's pretty long. Technology advances, that's the reason. But 50MP on a full-frame sensor and great low light performance at pixel level? I don't see that happening anytime soon.


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Shadowblade
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Feb 20, 2015 18:30 |  #641

jocau wrote in post #17441462 (external link)
Well, then I misunderstood you. When I'm talking about low light performance, I'm always talking about noise at pixel level (i.e. evaluating the noise from the RAW file zoomed in to 100% or 1:1 with no noise reduction applied in post). I believe DXOMark resizes all images to 8MP and then compares the noise performance, which in my opinion doesn't say that much about the actual noise performance since you don't buy a high MP body to downscale images all the time (except for web images). 5Dc and 5D2 are what, 3 years apart? That's pretty long. Technology advances, that's the reason. But 50MP on a full-frame sensor and great low light performance at pixel level? I don't see that happening anytime soon.

When you take a photo and print it (or display on web), do you print the entire image (after minor cropping for composition if necessary) or do you just take a 12-megapixel crop and print that, regardless of how many pixels make up the entire image? Or do you print your 24MP images at twice the size (1.41x the linear dimensions) of your 12MP images?

Thought so.

Then, assuming you're after the best-possible image quality, why do you care that a photo is made up of fifty million not-so-great pixels instead of twelve million perfect pixels, if the end result is a better and less-noisy overall image? When you have more pixels, you can cram more into the same space on the final print and each individual pixel matters less.




  
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Charlie
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Feb 20, 2015 18:32 as a reply to  @ jocau's post |  #642

I dont think you're seeing the big picture. DXO resizes all to 8mp because that's probably the smallest MP they have in their DB, so it makes sense.

however, if I'm shooting a 5Ds compared to a 6D, of course the 6D will be better at the pixel level at ANY ISO, however resized to equal levels is the only way to do a fair comparison. If both the 5Ds and 6D shot at 6400 and resized the 5Ds to match the 6D, we better hope that the 5Ds can match the 6D. If it can, then it's a clear winner, since it can also do 50mp. In practice that means that the 5Ds can print ANY size good as or better than the 6D.

the DXO test is just comparatively speaking, not pixel level, and it really does say a lot about noise performance. At the pixel level, pretty sure, the 5Dc beats the 5D2, however when normalized at 12mp, the 5D2 is the clear winner.

The downside with the 5Ds is native 6400...... considering that the 7D2 has native 16000, what's canon's excuse for native 6400?


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Feb 20, 2015 18:48 |  #643

Charlie wrote in post #17441474 (external link)
The downside with the 5Ds is native 6400...... considering that the 7D2 has native 16000, what's canon's excuse for native 6400?

The question is whether that actually matters.

At high ISO, the DR vs ISO curve is essentially linear, whether on a Canon or non-Canon sensor. This is because the vast majority of noise is photon shot noise. There is no advantage to shooting at ISO 25600 natively compared with shooting at ISO 6400 and pushing 2 stops - the result is the same. With non-Canon sensors, you can even shoot at ISO 200 and push 7 stops and end up with the same result, since their DR-vs-ISO curve stays linear a lot longer than Canon's does. What matters more is how well it holds up at ISO 6400 vs other cameras at the same ISO, not what Canon set as the arbitrary maximum.




  
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Feb 20, 2015 19:12 as a reply to  @ Shadowblade's post |  #644

If I had 2 cameras (e.g. an 18MP camera and a 50MP camera), took the same image with both of them (ISO100) and you told me I could make a large print of them both at any size I want, I would always make a larger print of the 50MP camera image, in such a way that ppi would equal the native dpi of the printer (e.g. if the native dpi of the printer is 300, I would want 300 ppi). Because of that noise performance at pixel level matters to me.


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Feb 20, 2015 19:28 |  #645

Charlie wrote in post #17441365 (external link)
uhh, not talking about the pixel level..... you can definitely have high resolution AND high ISO.

the A7r and A7 score practically the same when it comes to lowlight with dxomark.

The 5D2 outdid the 5Dc. The D800 and D600 had practically the same lowlight performance.

physics has nothing to do with it, we're talking about same sensor sizes and same output sizes.


Technology matters too. High ISO is a matter of signal noise ratio. This does not change the fact that large pixels have a physical advantage because they pick up more photons.


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