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Thread started 12 Nov 2014 (Wednesday) 14:59
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7D Mark II - Focus Discussions

 
huntersdad
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Feb 27, 2015 06:52 |  #1966

Bernd1 wrote in post #17451786 (external link)
Hey huntersdad and thanks for the analysis. And I think you are right. But the problem with your analysis being right causes even more confusion to me. As you can see on the focus pictures the locking on focus point was directly on the bird. The 4 others are only helping AF points and they did not lock onto the bird. (Original from the canon AF Maual for the AF system of the 7D II: AF point expansion (Manual selection ) Focus using one manually selected point assisted by 4 other AF points (up, down, left, and right)).
If I put the center AF point on the subject ant the camera then focus on the background then I do have no control of the focusing. I basically can not rely on the information: this is the focus point this is where the subject will be in focus. Then it is more like a bet or a guess and I can hope but it is not something I can influence.

This is what the handbook has to say about a single focus point:
Single-point AF is a mode where one manually selected AF point is used to focus. For experienced photographers or when it is easy to track the subject with a single AF point, AI Servo AF can be utilized when continuously shooting moving subjects, however, this mode is more effective for shooting still life and landscapes with One-shot AF mode.

as ist says MORE for: shooting still life and landscapes or easy to track the subject

but birds are not so easy to track. Thats why I bought this camera because i has 65 AF points.

Should I have than better bought a camera with only 1 AF point???

You are absolutely correct, so let's analyze your picture.

Main point on the bird. That's good, but there wasn't enough to lock focus. So, the camera kicked in the surrounding assist point. The top assist point is clearly on the water. The bottom assist point, while it is on his legs, also picked up the water because there isn't enough contrast between the water and the legs. 2 points lock focus on the same area = where you're focus landed.

Tracking this bird vs. tracking a bird in flight are two different things. The manual, when it says "tracking", is talking about tracking something moving more rapidly. In your situation, the bird is barely moving so single point could have worked.

This camera takes some time to learn. It is different and has different requirements from any other body I've shot. You only learn it by doing things right and doing things wrong. More points isn't ALWAYS better, but provides better options than one point. Take your time, shoot, learn from your mistakes and you'll find yourself getting more confident each time out.

Here's one from this past weekend, 7d2/1.4x/600II:

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CyberDyneSystems
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Feb 27, 2015 09:19 as a reply to  @ post 17451786 |  #1967

Bernd1,
You are correct in that an EOS that can use expansion SHOULD start with the center selected AF point, and the exif shoudl display which AF point was used. Buy Having expansion on, yes it's possible for the camera to choose the wrong AF point (and by wrong I mean an AF point other than the one you want it to use) but if it did, we should see that in your screen grab.

In your case, the bird is a tiny part of the screen, water reflections like those can cause problems for any camera, so I would not personally be expecting perfect results from ANY EOS camera in this situation. If this is the only case of missing focus I would not be too worried.

The mistaken display of AF points does not give your camera a pass though either. I'd keep working with it and see if it continues to give problems in less difficult situations.


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agedbriar
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Post edited over 4 years ago by agedbriar. (2 edits in all)
     
Feb 27, 2015 09:20 |  #1968

Archibald wrote in post #17451499 (external link)
It's nonsense to claim that an advance in sensor technology gives worse pictures.

In the generalized way you are putting it, you are probably right.

What isn't nonsense, though, is the statement that a high-density sensor, paired to a mediocre lens will not record finer detail in the subject (because the lens just couldn't supply it), while it will faithfully capture residual aberrations and small motion blur that a lower-density sensor might not have been able to.

ETA: I'm stressing this point since it's a pitfall that this board doesn't warn against as much as I think it should.




  
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Bianchi
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Post edited over 4 years ago by Bianchi.
     
Feb 27, 2015 11:36 |  #1969

Bernd1 wrote in post #17450619 (external link)
Here are the focus points...


Imho you have center with 4 expansion. It looks like you have center and two other points on birds body. Thus this should of been spot on in focus.


I only use center point period, don't care how sophisticated the AF system. No room for error, using other points

I shoot with a few other friends who own the 1Dx, and they all use center point only, reason being, they don't want to rely on camera's other points to focus.

Two are pro shooters.


This is a perfect example of relying on other points, that didn't do the job


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Post edited over 4 years ago by TeamSpeed. (4 edits in all)
     
Feb 27, 2015 14:03 |  #1970

The display overlay on an image with which AF points were active in NO WAY give you an indicator of where the AF points were actually situated over the subject material. That overlay is merely an indicator of which AF points in your spread were activated. The physical size and location can be different. One should never take the AF point indicator overlay as fact on where the AF points were and what they saw as they sit over the resulting image.

Also, the AF case settings play a big part in what happens. If you have the sensitivity or speed to switch to new subject material set too high, just a ripple of water that reflects light back can cause your AF to switch what it concentrates on. With the newer systems, you don't have to just juggle which AF points, which AF mode, and whether you use AI Servo or not, you have to be very aware of the other AF factors that you control through the AF cases. There are at least 6 different AF settings you must juggle with the 7D2, 5D3, etc.

I constantly mess with those during games to try to find the right combination of tracking, yet not switching to other material very quickly, etc.


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Feb 27, 2015 14:46 |  #1971

sounds to me like making a camera with so many different AF options has lead to many OOF images PERIOD. Thats why we all thought our 20 & 40D's produced such great images lol.....It was called center focus point.....And that about sums it up....lol. So maybe we can just lay this thread to rest!!!! My Goodness:rolleyes:


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Post edited over 4 years ago by Bianchi.
     
Feb 27, 2015 16:11 |  #1972

TeamSpeed wrote in post #17452660 (external link)
The display overlay on an image with which AF points were active in NO WAY give you an indicator of where the AF points were actually situated over the subject material. That overlay is merely an indicator of which AF points in your spread were activated. The physical size and location can be different. One should never take the AF point indicator overlay as fact on where the AF points were and what they saw as they sit over the resulting image.

Also, the AF case settings play a big part in what happens. If you have the sensitivity or speed to switch to new subject material set too high, just a ripple of water that reflects light back can cause your AF to switch what it concentrates on. With the newer systems, you don't have to just juggle which AF points, which AF mode, and whether you use AI Servo or not, you have to be very aware of the other AF factors that you control through the AF cases. There are at least 6 different AF settings you must juggle with the 7D2, 5D3, etc.

I constantly mess with those during games to try to find the right combination of tracking, yet not switching to other material very quickly, etc.


Excellent point's TS


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Feb 27, 2015 16:54 |  #1973

TeamSpeed wrote in post #17452660 (external link)
The display overlay on an image with which AF points were active in NO WAY give you an indicator of where the AF points were actually situated over the subject material. That overlay is merely an indicator of which AF points in your spread were activated. The physical size and location can be different. One should never take the AF point indicator overlay as fact on where the AF points were and what they saw as they sit over the resulting image.

Also, the AF case settings play a big part in what happens. If you have the sensitivity or speed to switch to new subject material set too high, just a ripple of water that reflects light back can cause your AF to switch what it concentrates on. With the newer systems, you don't have to just juggle which AF points, which AF mode, and whether you use AI Servo or not, you have to be very aware of the other AF factors that you control through the AF cases. There are at least 6 different AF settings you must juggle with the 7D2, 5D3, etc.

I constantly mess with those during games to try to find the right combination of tracking, yet not switching to other material very quickly, etc.

That's where my frustration lies. The exact same settings that work on the 5D3 result in garbage with the 7D2...


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Feb 27, 2015 18:02 |  #1974

rejay14 wrote in post #17451948 (external link)
I still don't buy the opinion that since I upgraded from an 18 MP sensor to a 20 MP, my technique is so poor that I've dropped from 95+% keepers to 5%. I can print large prints of "grab" shots from a 7D or 5D3 but not a 7D2? I'm not trying to be pompous, it's just hard to believe that it's technique. Bone-bracing, holding breath, light squeeze of the shutter is not enough to grab focus using an advanced sensor/focus system?

My tripod is apparently not rigid enough anymore either.

I agree completely.

I haven't visited this thread since I received my third 7D2 in December. Thankfully, my third one seems to be a keeper, so I've been using it, instead of reading this thread...

I shoot it exactly that way I've shot my 5D3 for almost three years. Which is basically the way I shot my original 7D. If you owned the original 7D, and/or a 5D3, and you had good success with them, you should have no less success using a 7D2. It's not rocket science.

If anything, you should get better results with the 7D2. Not just because it's a newer more advanced system, but also because of new features like anti-flicker. I shot hockey this week with both my 7D2 and 5D3. I paid no attention to which camera I was using. I shot them both the same way. Out of over 500 shots with the 7D2, only maybe three were not acceptably sharp, and those were no doubt my fault. I think the 7D2 anti-flicker feature helped with the hockey photos.

I finally got some opportunities for winter BIF this month, and thankfully my third 7D2 performed at least as well as expected.

I went thru seven weeks of hell with my first two 7D2's, so I sympathize with those who are struggling. I wish I had the answer for you. All I can say is that technique was NOT the problem with my first two 7D2's.




  
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Bernd1
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Feb 27, 2015 18:09 |  #1975

Bianchi wrote in post #17452805 (external link)
Excellent point's TS

Does that also apply to the AF point indicator in the viewfinder of the camera?




  
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Feb 27, 2015 18:26 as a reply to  @ huntersdad's post |  #1976

Nice looking duck!


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Bernd1
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Feb 27, 2015 18:49 |  #1977

TeamSpeed wrote in post #17452660 (external link)
The display overlay on an image with which AF points were active in NO WAY give you an indicator of where the AF points were actually situated over the subject material. That overlay is merely an indicator of which AF points in your spread were activated. The physical size and location can be different. One should never take the AF point indicator overlay as fact on where the AF points were and what they saw as they sit over the resulting image.

Also, the AF case settings play a big part in what happens. If you have the sensitivity or speed to switch to new subject material set too high, just a ripple of water that reflects light back can cause your AF to switch what it concentrates on. With the newer systems, you don't have to just juggle which AF points, which AF mode, and whether you use AI Servo or not, you have to be very aware of the other AF factors that you control through the AF cases. There are at least 6 different AF settings you must juggle with the 7D2, 5D3, etc.

I constantly mess with those during games to try to find the right combination of tracking, yet not switching to other material very quickly, etc.

Does that also apply to the AF point indicator in the viewfinder of the camera?




  
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Kickflipkid687
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Feb 27, 2015 18:59 |  #1978

I still think my first copy was bad. However I also see and agree now that better technique/focus case settings and sometimes the lens matters.

I think I said before, but my tamron hasn't been amazing in general, and slightly better on the 7d ii.

But using the new canon 100-400 ii + 1.4iii and case 4 with center only, I had good results. Multiple quick bif grabs with almost no time to pickup tracking. I even lost and re-tapped back button focus and acquired sharp images in like half a second.

So the camera is capable. It's just knowing how to handle it now.

As others said, the af points are probably larger and more offse than u think. Not 1x1 with the view finder. Same with the original 7d


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Feb 27, 2015 20:45 |  #1979

O [QUOTE=butterfly2937;1​7452934][QUOTE=hunters​dad;17452086]You are absolutely correct, so let's analyze your picture.

Main point on the bird. That's good, but there wasn't enough to lock focus. So, the camera kicked in the surrounding assist point. The top assist point is clearly on the water. The bottom assist point, while it is on his legs, also picked up the water because there isn't enough contrast between the water and the legs. 2 points lock focus on the same area = where you're focus landed.

Tracking this bird vs. tracking a bird in flight are two different things. The manual, when it says "tracking", is talking about tracking something moving more rapidly. In your situation, the bird is barely moving so single point could have worked.

This camera takes some time to learn. It is different and has different requirements from any other body I've shot. You only learn it by doing things right and doing things wrong. More points isn't ALWAYS better, but provides better options than one point. Take your time, shoot, learn from your mistakes and you'll find yourself getting more confident each time out.

Here's one from this past weekend, 7d2/1.4x/600II:

IMAGE: http://bradipock.smugmug.com/WildlifeandNature/Waterfowl-14-15/i-3NfmGrz/0/L/7D2_1422-L.jpg
IMAGE LINK: http://bradipock.smugm​ug.com …terfowl-14-15/i-3NfmGrz/A  (external link) [/QUOTE
Beautiful capture!
O may goodness Carol,...you didn't lol

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TeamSpeed
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Feb 28, 2015 23:32 |  #1980

[Q
UOTE=Bernd1;17452957]D​oes that also apply to the AF point indicator in the viewfinder of the camera?[/QUOTE]
Yes, the display in the viewfinder are merely lcd boxes integrated into the lcd screen, and the actual AF sensors reside elsewhere. They should be close but people have mapped the actual AF sensors to the viewfinder results, and some are quite off.


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7D Mark II - Focus Discussions
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